I've no doubt Wenger will get a highly paid job elsewhere and good luck to him.

[East Upper for Supper]

If he were to move to PSG, which is likely, and his job performance were on a par with his AFC performance this last 12 months then I wonder who would be taking over from him when PSG sack him?

[Pat Vegas]

[Monty91]

[Brentwood]

It's a two way street sometimes

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

[Maravilloso Marvo]

managers as a club.

[Pat Vegas]

[Monty91]

This is what we're up against here. The cretin is strong in this one.

[Peter]

And behind liverpool.

And for years we have been literally a tackle or a decision away from missing out.

One could argue that spurs being within a whisker of us for three years with a far smaller turnover and wage bill is a greater achievement. And they sacked a mansger for it.b

[Peter]

[East Upper for Supper]

Tidy player who drives forward and keeps the ball moving but the incisive final ball is left to players like Theo or Carzola. attacking player but not creative.

[East Upper for Supper]

[Cyprus The Immortal Gooner]

[Monty91]

on mediocre players?

[Monty91]

[Peter]

Assembled a god awful team and does ok with them. His first job is to assemble the team!

We are either judging on resources or we are not. If we are, spurs match us within a point or two with far smaller resources and they thought it was **** enough to sack their mansger. FACT

:hehe:

[Monty91]

putting your inconsistency in plainer terms, so thank you.

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

And consistency is key here, even Chelsea came 5th the season before last.

[East Upper for Supper]

[Peter]

Yet again you refuse to address a point. It really is quite childish.

[Brentwood]

any club in the world in 2004, and was offered a load as well, on much more money? Yet he turned them down to stay with us, knowing that he would have f**k all to spend for years and that every top player he found/made would be sold?

And for all the disappointments over those years we've had a huge new stadium which we paid for ourselves, got to a CL final, seen countless top quality players, played in the CL every year ahead of Spurs and Liverpool? Liverpool ffs, we have overtaken Liverpool wrt league finish expectations. He's enabled all of that

If he doesn't add players before sep 2 he's cuplable, but there IS still time

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

[Peter]

Then surely spurs' is as well, if not more so.

It seems we ae happy to excuse ourselves from challenging those bove u ecause they are so much better off, yet the fact that we are better off than those below us (some of them seriously f**king close to us) doesnt appear to temper pur putstanding achievements in sny way.

[Monty91]

finishing 4th with our wage bill is no achievement, and on the other saying that we spunk all our wages on **** players.

[Peter]

[Cyprus The Immortal Gooner]

and a safe job. What top level club would have kept Wenger with no trophy for so long? I'm not ungrateful and I respect for his contribution for us. But as you said, it's a two face coin...

[Ashberto]

Joe Lewis has bankrolled heavy transfer fees for years. Recently they've had some decent players to trade out to balance things but overall they have been a sugar-daddied club for ages.

[Monty91]

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

That Wenger has been able to bring that consistency while making a transfer profit each season has to be worth a great deal, right?

I get that we have paid a lot on wages, and that is my main criticism of Wenger's time at Arsenal. But this is a man who has had his best players snatched away from him year on year, consistently has to rebuild with meagre resources, and has a fanbase on his back half the time, and he STILL keeps us where we need to be to position us for the brighter things to come.

We are properly set for the future financially now, and it's all because of Arsene Wenger. Every bit of future success we have (and I believe it will come, soon) will be down to him.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Brentwood]

but i still think he is MASSIVELY in credit with the club

I'm also worried that we follow Spurs approach of swapping managers every couple of years. They have appointed managers with the best reputation in Europe and they have been disasterous for them

[Peter]

I accepted your premise merely because you wereriming it as an excuse.

Secondly, the conversation was about resources and how you use them. Wasting your onw advantage hardly supports an argument over your achievement now does it. Its an absurd logic. Yeah, we had an advantage by i f**ked that up by buyig **** players....

The basic premise remains unanswered. Note you dont raise specifics in the use of resources by those above us.it is simply mathematical- they have more money therefore they finish above us.

At no point will you accept that our own financial advantage over everyone below may, in any way, temper the outstnading achievement of finishing a distant fourth.

Childish.

[Brentwood]

[Red N White Army]

[Peter]

Why cant you have a sensible conversation where you address the point eing made to you?

You know full well that isnt what i am saying. Stop being a pillock.

[Monty91]

We have been consistently out-spent by Spurs, Liverpool and (I believe) other clubs for years, none of whom have had to pay off a £350 million new stadium.

Our wage bill has been inflated due to our decision to adapt our strategy during these financially straight-jacketed years, by tying young players down to big, long contracts.

Could this money have been better used? Perhaps. Does it detract from the overall picture of our financial disadvantage since we moved stadium? Absolutely not.

[Cyprus The Immortal Gooner]

frustrating to deal with his stubbornness especially the last 3-4 years.

[Peter]

And if i didnt agree, i would probsbly want wenger out.

I was just sttempting to get monty to engage in a rather more balanced analysis of these last eight years. To stop seeing them as the pure and perfect miracle.

It seems to me that if we are all goig to accept that those three clubs simply cannot ever e caught or competed with, the rest of us may as well go home. Football doesnt necessarily work like that.

The point is this- os there anything we could have done differently to get closer to them? Or have we been spot on,100 per cent perfect for the last eight years?

It isnt an unreasonable point.b

[Peter]

It isnt necessarily about how we use the wage bill. Its about the fact that our turnover can sustain a bigger one than the others.

Its an advantage. I am just tryig to provide some context to the miracle, thats all.

[Red N White Army]

Especially in 07/08, would have made the difference. So might not losing both strikers to injury right after the window closed. But that's what AW is paid to consider, we'll never know.

[redgunamo]

[Red N White Army]

Than Spurs', it also includes the rest of the non-playing staff, which is more than double those at Spurs.

[Monty91]

the financial disadvantage we've been under since we moved stadium.

[Brentwood]

job. It would certainly be a big risk and I expect us to go through a few before we find a good one

I just hope people don't get too upset when he leaves for PSG and shows what he can do when his best players are sold every single year

[Bergkamp's Brain]

maybe that is why Monty is finiding it hard to understrand what you are saying?

:-)

[Monty91]

4th place on a few occasions. I'm not sure how else I was supposed to interpret this.

[Cyprus The Immortal Gooner]

the team for so long when you star players are deserting you. Yet, he is at fault for the deadwood and their overpriced contracts...I just wish he could really prove us that with money available for the first time, he would have strengthened the team considerably...

[East Upper for Supper]

Pre 2005 no argument with anyone that he was a top manager. Since?
He's performance in cup competitions has on the whole been woeful when it comes to the crunch games and sometimes tactical decisions baffling.
he's sold on players and bought cheap. He's had the resources in that the wage bill is one of the highest in the league. He's managed to waste good resource on dross like Gervinho (10m) and Santos (7m) and high salaries on waster like Bendtner..
He's sold our assets to or nearest rivals, bar Cesc, making them stronger. Dont say the board made those decisions. Wenger green lights everyhthing. He has too much power and has now run the current squad into the ground. He's even let the current squad down in that all the expectation falls on players who are injury prone and actually believe that they need the assist of quality additions.

as an employee hes performed well over 16 years based on averaging the first 8 years achievements across it. Realistically the sole performance of the last 8 would not have given him the job secrity at any other top club in the world. He;s been highly rewarded and is now the leagues highest paid manager. However he imo has reached his sell by with AFC.

[East Upper for Supper]

plus they won the FA cup.

[redgunamo]

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

[Peter]

Sorry, i thought that was perfectly obvious. I keep saying it because you keep refusing to address the wuestion

[Brentwood]

so of course he is cuplable for that, absolutely.

However, observe how Man Utd bought Jones, Smalling, Buttner, Bebe, Powell. A few of them have been flops and a few of them need a bit of time to improve and get up to speed. The difference is that Utd werent forced to field most of them. In our case, we had to take risks by buying younger, unproven players and had no opportunity whatsoever to bed them in. The expectation was there from day one that they would play and show something, because we make so few signings.

[East Upper for Supper]

[Peter]

You are indeed correct.

Its just...one could argue that better use of the wage bill might have allowed us to do a bit better. In other words, have we made best use of our one real advnatage, set against the evident disadvantages we have suffered.

The two are clearly linked, wages and fees, despite being separate. Things were easier when spurs were buying **** players. Their better use of money has provided us with a serious challenge. Its annoying.

[Monty91]

There's only so many years you can be the bridemaid and not the bride (top four) before you have to start asking yourself whether the bride is doing something fundamentally better than you. I would suggest that 15 years, during which time you've being bankrolled by a billionaire whilst your rivals have been stymied by a massive debt, and still not managing to usurp us (however close they may have come on a few occasions), is about the right time to ask that question.

[Peter]

Do you? :-)

[Peter]

I do accept that i am only addressing the last few years of the achievement, which obviously doesnt diminish the consistency of it over 15 years.

Spurs havent actually spent a fprtune in recent years, until this summer. They have stuck very close to us for three years with a far smaller wage bill and without the atrraction or the money of the cl. Surely that is a bit of an achievement isnt it?

[Monty91]

Fúck off!

[Peter]

The discussion is abput respurces and how you use them.

[Peter]

[East Upper for Supper]

Hes a achieved bare minimum with a fair bit of resource. He's at the same time should have achieved a few more cup wins but inexplicitly screwed up. wWegers worked with no pressure from the board and the caveat that we could afford to miss out on the CL is such a scenario happened. In fact Wenger run everything related to the plying side. I doubt any manager has his power.
In the meantime the money men have negotiated deals to put us in the position going forward that you talk of..

[Peter]

I am just probing your miracle, if you will. Digging deeper.

I thought that was what we did on here?

I could just say that jack is **** and we never sign anyone if you prefer?

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

[redgunamo]

Unless we would get more money from qualifying than we would from actually winning the damn thing :rubchin:

[Brentwood]

The fact that our rivals have been given unlimited funds to buy 2-3 20m+ players in every position?

The fact that at the same time the above happened we had a huge burden of stadium debt that we had to service every year?

Or the fact that a manager that went a whole season unbeaten is no longer any good?

[Monty91]

They should have usurped us by now based on their financial advantage, but have consistently failed. how is that an achievement?

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

He created the environment and was the driving force behind the Emirates. Remember David Dein was against it, but Wenger's sound financial management enabled the likes of Fiszman and Edelman to push it through, and the time since has been Wenger keeping the ship steady and afloat up until the point now where we are able to spend.


Now this is the crucial bit.


We have to accept what has been said this summer that funds are 'finally' available to us. If they don't get spent then questions certainly need to be asked. This needs to be the time that all the years of scraping by have been building up to.

[East Upper for Supper]

resources or not.

[Luis Anaconda]

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2011/08/12/arsenals-net- spending-of-48m-in-a-decade-puts-them-9th-in-premier-league- 120802/ (http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2011/08/12/arsenals-net-spending-of-48m-in-a-decade-puts-them-9th-in-premier-league-120802/)

A net spend of higher than Manchester United's and Liverpool suggests you may be barking up the wrong tree, particularly the 111 million over two summers in the late 2000s. The whole wage thing is misguiding

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

What about 5th and a League Cup?

[Peter]

Much on balance.

[Peter]

[Monty91]

recouped most of that with outgoings, including Modric.

I guess that's been a big difference too. We've received big transfer fees for outgoings, but seemingly not been able to reinvest them.

[East Upper for Supper]

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

But would you? Take 5th and a league cup over 4th?

[Bergkamp's Brain]

[redgunamo]

that not qualifying needn't be the end of the world, so who knows.

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

I'm terrified of ending up like them.

[redgunamo]

But there's the rub though; perhaps the CL is actually not so important for them having already got a few of them. Our obsession with it is understandable, on that score.

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

And not their ridiculously impressive history up to that point. They've fallen from a great heigh indeed.

[redgunamo]

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

we should try to avoid

[redgunamo]

Lots of stuff will happen over the course of a club's life.

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

[redgunamo]

satisfied with his lot. On the whole.

Same as us.