the German model? no thank you

[plastic james]

alot of people in this country love how the german bundes liga operates, and the fact that no investor can buy more than 49% of a club.

the argument was that you get a more competitive league and gives smaller clubs the ability to compete in the absence of rich owners.

we leaned this week that 40% of all revenues that comes in to german clubs goes to bayern munich and its increasing, exactly what is competitive about that?

we're at a point where bayerns closest rival, dortmund, are about to lose their 2 best players to bayern (gotze and lewandowski)

as much as we hate chelsea and man city, because they had direct effect on our ability to compete, atleast they do provide a challenge to manu, and would never sell their best players to Ferguson.

maybe we should aim to be more like chelsea and man city(get usmanov) rather than support the feudalistic nonsense that goes on in germany.

[Snin]

http://topnews.in/files/Claudia_Ciesla.jpg

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

Surely the ideal is to have proportional tv income and the Bundesliga's ownership restrictions?

[Monty91]

for the second season running despite being the smallest net spenders in the league for god knows how many years, is there not reason to hope we may be able to challenge without chucking a f**k load of money at it?

[Peter]

Doesnt seem terribly fair :-)

[Ashberto]

That's before getting to the desire for unsustainability.

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

[Ashberto]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

*What. Ever. (piss, pot)

[ITSUPFORGRABSNOW]

[Peter]

So probably not!

I think the 'f**kload' of money might not be necessary but a fair sum of money is certsinly required, if for nothing other than sustaining the wages of your better players.

I dont think any of expect arsenal to go and spend hundreds of millions. I would think there are very few of us who would want that. It needs to look more like a steady increase in spending across the board.

[plastic james]

they make so much more from commercials that no team stand a chance to compete.

this is the result of global capitalism, bayern bring in so much money from the world wide market that no german club has a chance to come close.

the soloution? fight fire with fire and get a rich owner, this isnt allowed in germany, or a socialist solution and make bayern share their commercial revenues, which i cannot see happening.

the result is you get a one team league sooner rather than later

[Classic Jorge]

For what exactly? Because Bayern beat Barca last night?

FFS why is the concept of a sustainable business model so hard to understand for people?

[Classic Jorge]

[Ashberto]

buy glory and thus be happy.

[Peter]

I dont really want to support a sustainable business model, important though it is.

Maybe we should replace our honours list with some highlights from our annual accounts?

[plastic james]

would/is increasing.....we would find us in the bayern/dortmund situation very soon. only the presence of chelsea and later on city have kept lid on manu's commercials revenues.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

It's funny how Germany is upside down. The cultured ones live up norf, whilst the grunting troglodytes inhabit the south. Odd.

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

The system in place in the Premier League isn't a bad one to start off with, is it?

[Peter]

I had sort of skipped pver that part to be honest. Bores the *******s off me :-)

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Would you prefer to win trophies by splashing blood money?

[Monty91]

because that business model happens to be your football club.

What you've basically just said is that you'd rather Arsenal risked going bust than remaining financially sound, which is not true.

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

(n.b. I am well aware that football has always been like this to some degree)

[ITSUPFORGRABSNOW]

Makes me laugh the scottish bully getting all upset about other teams spending.

[Classic Jorge]

A sustainable model where we're funded by the revenues from within the club will do a lot more to ensure there's a club to support in x years time.

What's more, you know this

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

:-|

[Peter]

The point is that profits are not victory. Let us not lose sight of the reason this business exists.

Itisnt an overly complicated point.

[Classic Jorge]

[Monty91]

[Peter]

Selective. Who is to decide which profit is honourable and which not?

The notion that our model is based on some vague notion of what is right and proper is a little irritating.

[redgunamo]

[plastic james]

but the fact that 40% of all money in germany goes to bayern and increasing.

and the fact that they signed gotze and want lawandowski too, which brings the question who can compete?

uli hoesnes just said he fears the Bundesliga has become too easy, not pointing out how the current model has benefited them

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11890/8641613/Bayern -chief-Uli-Hoeness-fears-the-Bundesliga-has-become-too-easy (http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11890/8641613/Bayern-chief-Uli-Hoeness-fears-the-Bundesliga-has-become-too-easy)

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

question of right and wrong.

Right is right. Fudging the issue doesn't change that.

[Peter]

Is a brilliant business, an incredible achievement.

It just isnt a football achievement. Asmuch as a sustainble model is a neccesity, it isnt an end in itself. It isnt why we arehere.

Remember, most football fans ae thick according to you. Is it that surprising that they dont consider these financial issues and focus solely on the football?

I was simply trying to highlight why some people struggle to understand the concept of the sustainable model- because they dont give a f**k about it.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

They'd be a little 'zu befehl!' for LA.

[Monty91]

I would simply prefer us to try to win things without spending excessive (relatively speaking) amounts, because I would gain no sense of pride of achievement in winning things the Chelsea/City way.

[Peter]

Between your simple black and white, right and wrong?

Is stan's money cleaner than usmanaov's? Why?

[Luis Anaconda]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Pass us me fags.

[Ashberto]

bought. They and PSG have driven wage inflation which has damaged us as well.

Now that West Ham are enjoying the same free state sponsorship that Man City did, expect them to be the next club bought by a sheikh or oligarch.

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

I mean this whole 'making a profit' thing, when we are still 250-odd million in debt. Surely accruing funds against our massive debt is just protecting the future existence of the club?

[plastic james]

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

operating a business, rather than raping a country with gay abandon as per the Standard Socialist Operating Manual, but that's all irrelevant, because Stan isn't funding us.

[Monty91]

I hold the two following positions:

1) I want us to remain self-sustainable
2) I would gain no satisfaction from us remaining self-sustainable and winning nothing

You *seem* to be suggesting these two positions are incompatible?

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Classic Jorge]

The various forms of ownership have nothing to do with their pre-eminance as a club. In fact, they are in the position they are in despite the restrictions placed on them by the governance structure.

[Ashberto]

I don't know whether you are being deliberately obtuse because you want to wind people up or are doing that angry spoilt child thing where fans just want lots of nice presents.

[plastic james]

[Classic Jorge]

[Monty91]

Imagine being a fan of a lower league club and hearing us talk about being "financially responsible". They would snort with derision,

[redgunamo]

Without him nobody would've ever heard of them.

[Luis Anaconda]

[Luis Anaconda]

[PSRB]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

buggered. It's happened and there's no turning back. :-(

[redgunamo]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

concepts like derision. They manage bewilderment, on occasion, like when trying to dress themselves.

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

Just another football team.

[Luis Anaconda]

[Luis Anaconda]

HAVE YOU NOT SEEN GARETH BARRY AND JAMES MILNER PLAY MAN

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Good man. Probably best not to overthink these things. It's only a game, after all.

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

But a game nonetheless.

[ITSUPFORGRABSNOW]

Their opinion was why doesn't everyone support Chelsea as they won the Champions league. Strange as you would think that a Russian owner might put them off.

[redgunamo]

[Snin]

way imo..makes you realise more to life..well done SW

[Peter]

But that in itself is not cause for celebration. Precisely points 1 and 2 that you have just stated.

The original point was that plenty of fans dont give a f**k about the business model because they simply want to support a football club.

I agree that spunking billions cheapens success. Totally agree.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

to the very limits of effort and achievement, physically and mentally, the union of tens of thousands in one place in pursuit of a single end. All this, and Stoke City.

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

A colour I have never really managed to be friends with.

I've no problem with what they have done. There has always been big spenders in football.

[redgunamo]

[NOT Nicosia. Now banned.]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Did you have absolutely no option? :-( They're so... vulgar, aren't they?

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

Twice a season they will cross my line of vision, thrice perhaps in the event of an FA Cup game.

I tend to watch as little of the PL as I can get away with.

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

I have a white one for formal occasions and deaths, and another which is a form of check.

[redgunamo]

[Peter]

Quite remarkable.

Is it really so contentious to state that the purpose of a football club is to play football?

Thatis all. I knowi am not exactly re inventing the wheel here but i wasnt trying to. For the hundredth time, i was trying to point out why some fans might not care too much about our business model.

[Monty91]

until the stark realities arrive.

You think your average knucklehead Leeds fan didn't suddenly take an interest in his club's accounts when their very existence was threatened? You think he didn't want to know who was to blame, what could have been done differently, and how they can make sure it never happens again?

[plastic james]

maybe because you want our current model to work so much that you're ignoring the signs.

bayern have never had 40% of all german football revenues, this is new territory even for them. the main reason for this is because football has become globalized.

this model is unsustainable because its killing competition, german clubs have no chance of competing with bayern in the world market. its no longer about competing with them in germany, which is why it has become a huge task for german clubs, bundes liga chairmen now say the situation is impossible to revert.

this is where manu were heading before abramovic came to chelsea.

football buseiness, juts like any other business in society is creating gaps that did not exist before the globalisation of the world economy.

the bundes liga provide a national solution for a global phenomena, its useless and ineffective.

i see 3 options to keep this sustainable

1- take money form bayern and give it to the bundes liga clubs

2- invite rich owners

3- break away and create european league which operates differently and makes sure there is competition in terms of economy.

anything other than that is delusional

[ITSUPFORGRABSNOW]

I felt obliged as I was in a nice golf club in Atlanta being treated to some very nice scoff and red wine etc.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Peter]

Of course everyone wants someone to blame when things go wrong but that is hardly the same thing is it?

Those same fans werent complaining five years earlier when they were playing in the champions league.

There remains of course the fact that plenty of is dont actually understand much about these business models

[Ashberto]

of a country happened, as I understand it, when he transferred a large country's mineral wealth from being owned by the state (albeit badly and corruptly run) to being owned by him personally. It doesn't sound very Socialist of him, if I may say so.

I'm not defending Stalin btw. Just wanted to make that clear.

[Classic Jorge]

I said "The various forms of ownership have nothing to do with their pre-eminance as a club".

This pre-eminence has enabled them to grow their revenues, they are exploiting it better than anybody else.

1- take money form bayern and give it to the bundes liga clubs

GLWTP imo.

2- invite rich owners

This makes no sense, you'll just further distort everything.

3- break away and create european league which operates differently and makes sure there is competition in terms of economy.

Given Bayern will be at the heart of any breakaway I very much doubt you'll find many turkeys voting for christmas.

[redgunamo]

and go down a division or two? Even if it were for footballistic reasons, rather than financial ones? Or even both?

After all, Leeds United ARE still a football club, playing football matches. So far as I know.

[Monty91]

fell on hard times or was disfigured in a car crash.

:-|

[Peter]

Concerns.

[Monty91]

That they didn't care before it went tits up seems an odd distinction to make.

Anyway, thanks for backtracking. Very magnanimous of you.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

I quite understand your point, old chap. It's just that we swivel-eyed, ranting right-wing loonies don't really do reason or logic, we just rant away.

[redgunamo]

[redgunamo]

At least as a presumption?

Isn't the real distortion FFP and sustainable business models, just as it would be in real life?

[plastic james]

at least historically

but current ownership rules enhance their position to unsustainable levels because it prevents a new kid on the block to arrive while previous rivals are getting further and further back

the're getting richer and richer, which leads to more domination, which leads to more money, this catch-22 will lead to a break away european league and the death of bundes liga unless drastic changes occur, it is simply unsustainable from economic point of view.

we see something similar in spain, but there we have 2 teams rather than 1, ppl say its because of the tv deals but its party correct, even without the tv deals, they make so much money that those 2 are close to attracting 75% of all commercial money in spanish football.

the english league is being kept alive because of the artificial investments from rich owners, and yes i do understand even that is no long term solution. but from an arsenal point of views it would give us an immediate push to the top and we'd be well placed when the whole thing collapses and the break away european league starts.

.

[redgunamo]

I say again, Leeds United are still a football club playing football matches.

[Peter]

With respect, that isnt the same as caring aobut a business model.

And of course it is a HUGE distinction, dont be ridiculous. Moaning about something after it has happened and pointing fingers is hardly the same as takig a genuine interest in it. What you are really saying is that football fans care about the consequences of the business model, and what it might do to their club. On this i aree with you but i tend to think that supporters are generally happy to leave this to their club to organise. They tend to focus their comments on what the manager does rather than what the chief executive is up to. Apart from when said chief exec is refusing to spend money of course

[Classic Jorge]

FAs are only able to define the environment in a sporting sense, they are still subject to the restraints of trade laws

[Classic Jorge]

[plastic james]

cannot take money from a club and share it around, its illegal.

economic competitiveness shapes the sporting environment.

but my point was if that cannot be done, which i very well know, and unless the germans invite rich owners that create such havoc that no one team dominates the game, sooner or later we'll get to a european league. thus the much praised german model is unsustainable

that european league WILL not be ruled like the domestic leagues now, i think it will be organised like an NFL/NBA whereby clubs negotiate deals as a league and share revenues with wage caps and transfer caps imposed as well.

that is the only way you can guarantee any sort of sporting competition in these times of disproportional finances.

[Classic Jorge]

It makes no sense when money is the root of the problem.

You'd be better off installing a salary cap

[plastic james]

but i'm not insane, i know that has it limits. i think the future is a european league, with shared revenues, transfer and wage caps.

one can wonder why cant the domestic league introduce these solutions, when the top clubs get to big.

i think top european clubs would rather share such measures/league with 18 other European clubs than with getafe,vicenza wigan or dusseldorf.

i think we're at the pre stage of that euro league, these problems and issues will lead to this super league being the only solution for the big boys.

i want arsenal to be part of that. it cold be 5-10 years away, who knows.....but i want usmanov in this summer to push us and compete in the sort term, but also guarantee our future status as a top club by being in top position when this european league starts in 8,9, 10 or what ever years.

[Classic Jorge]

[plastic james]

[Alexism - Atheoist]