Bayern were class and outperform us... but whats the difference between the clubs?

[Buggane]

Their income is a bit better than ours, due to a huge commercial revenue that we have failed to address.... but we both have a huge income.

So with an income not far behind them, why are they so much better?? Answer: because they are a well run club. The gap is getting bigger and bigger.

Every year they sign a proven worldclass player.... better to spend 25-35 million in proven quality than to take a punt for a player in 10 million.

So every year they sign a: Robben, Ribery, Neuer (ok, fault at our goal today)... Javi Navarro last summer for 40 million Euros!! In a few years time you have a worldclass team if you have money... doesn't warranty success on the pitch but certainly helps.

Arsenal.... not only we don't buy worldclass players... if it happens we develop one every 5 or 10 signings we sell him. Spot the difference? I'm pretty sure our wage bill won't be lower than that of Bayern.

Conclusion: they are extremely well run, we do suck as a business football model... or probably a mix between both

[Classic Jorge]

Have you liked football long, sonny?

[Camp Freddie]

[Classic Jorge]

somebody actually wrote that.

[Camp Freddie]

[Peter]

That at least seems to be true.

[One Wilf Copping]

To be fair, if you put aside the historical, financial and structural differences and just consider the culture of the clubs, the difference is still huge. And that is one thing that costs nothing.

Post-match Beckenbauer was on German tv chiding the Bayern players for being complacent and taking it too easy on the Arsenal players.

Winning really is everything at Bayern and that attitude permeates the club from top to bottom. The players are constantly under huge pressure and scrutiny and anyone that can't cut it is shipped out - immediately.

[Classic Jorge]

Um, we both own Dark Side of the Moon....

[Buggane]

Have you heard about Deloitte Money league?

In 08/09 Bayern Income was 290 Million Euros, Arsenal 263 Million.
In 11/12 Bayern Income was 368 Million Euros, Arsenal 290 Million

Commercial Income (not Broadcasting, not match day income):
08/09 Bayern 159M, Arsenal 57M
11/12 Bayern 202M, Arsenal 65M
Do you still think we are a well run club?

Do you believe Bayern wage bill is bigger than of Arsenal??

Do me a favour and do some research before you just justify our poor performance on the pitch because they are a "much bigger" club... they are bigger club because they are being run properly. Of course they have 4 CL.... so what, Chelski has one now....

[Classic Jorge]

[Buggane]

... see my answer above

[One Wilf Copping]

Come on, the commercial income point is a cheap shot.

Ther are plenty of Grman teams that fill thir stadiums, big ones too, but in terms of power, influence and financial potential Bayern are playing in a one-team league that just happens to be in Europe's biggest, richest economy.

Bayern go to Deutsche Telekom etc and tell them how much the next sponsorship deal will be, not the other way around.

[Classic Jorge]

I could also reel off countless bayern players since pretty much the dawn of the professional game over there, which was surprisingly recently (you'll find all of this out when you come to your german football module, dont worry) that would wipe the floor with the best the english league had to offer, let alone what we had.

The fact remains that even being on the same pitch as Bayern would, up until the last fifteen years, have been enough for most fans. The thought that we are all despondent about a 3-1 loss is, if anything, a sign of just how far we've come.

[Buggane]

True about that, I'll give it to you the commercial point... but our increase in commercial revenue has been poor to be kind... compare it to any other top club.

You do think Bayern wage bill is higher than Arsenal? We are underachivieng.... a complacency culture in every area of the club, not just the football pitch.

[Classic Jorge]

[plastic james]

we were close to them few years ago and they run away.

in terms of size of clubs...we're nowhere near them....we're the 3rd biggest club in england....they are by far the biggest club in germany

we expect our club to be up there and compete for the title every season......they expect their club to WIN their league every season

we have our fair share of fans in the UK.....they are by far the best supported team in germany with a population of 80 million....and have insane amount of fans in eastern europe.

and most importantly....they have 4 european cups....we have none

sure we can still compete with them and knock them out from the CL if we have a good team...but lets not deny they are by far a bigger club

[Buggane]

.... the key question here is:

Is Arsenal with the 5th or 6th top income in football clubs is underachieving or not?

We were meant to lose against them, no question, it just hurts more knowing we are not doing all we could

[Peter]

8 years ago we were capable of giving eerybody in the world a game and having a reasonable chance of winning.

Now we consider just being allowed to play them as a sign of how far we have come?

I will say this....some people on here have a pretty f**ked up view of what arsenal is, and our place in football. Ok, we are not bayern,united or bacrelona, but i certainly didnt grow up to elieve in a club thatshould be blushing at the mere thought of being allowed to play them. We were a big and successful club before wenger arrived. The notion that 4th is fine and we should be grateful for it is f**king horse****.

It annoys me, thats all. The arsenal i grew up may have been a bit unfashionable and may not hae won the league every year but at least it bloody well wanted to. At least it tried. At least it didnt 'know its place'

[7evens]

The other two are more to the point.

[wibble the lobster]

the fundametal problem with the club is how we are run:

no one is managing the manager who has carte blanche to set his own targets

our owner never comes and probably never watches.

the wage policy (set by wenger) strangles the club as we pay too much to poor players (including for those on loan at other cubs.

gazidis is a "brand" man whose record on commercial sponsorship is highly questionable and has no ability to direct the manager.

the team is effectively at Everton level if that - infact we are playing a former Everton midfielder who was struggling to get in their first team for mathces that mattered in his final season there. A midfielder who appears to have been dropped by Wales. A technical wizard struggling for consistency in his first season. A talented but young keeper prone to errors. central defenders prone to awful lapses in marking and a striker who needs 5/6 shots to score. so a 20 year old is left to carry the team, Wenger tries to defend them but essentialy we all know the squad is just not able to compete a the top anymore.

The new stadium was meant to allow us to compete with utd and now we have control of the debt you would have hoped for new investement in real talent. It has been a fundamental mistake of management not to requre wenger to spend this season. When you sell your best and only world class player to the club you wish to emulate and do not buy a replacement world class player, you are asking for trouble.

I really dont know if wenger should go (quite probably) but I do feel that replacing him with a manager who lashes the cash is pointless if the club continues not to be properly run at the top. It is what has held Liverpool back for years despite the cash spent there.

The problems run deeper than wenger and anyone thinking you can just change one man and cure things is being incredibly optimistic imo.

of course we were poorly run by unambitious owners for most of my years supporting the club so the other way of looking at this is that we are just returning to our normal status.
not very comforting that

[Buggane]

... but with our income we should be much closser to them in football terms.... instead the gap gets bigger and bigger

Our board is just harvesting the new stadium income, they have fail to take Arsenal to the next level

And new commercial deals for Emirates or Adidas in the future? Par of the course... market values now that anyone could have negotiate... look the at Liverpool having achieved nothing in many years how much they get for that

[plastic james]

i think wenger and the board have presented this view last few years....that we're doing ok.....4th is a trophy and that he wouldn't mind finishing 2nd for the next 20 years.

that IS nonsense ofcourse....and like you said...we always wanted to win the league....no matter if did it or dnot...unlike bayern who expect to win their league.

i'm 100% against this feudalistic view on football that we aresnal fans have been sold last few years...we should aim higher than we do...getting what we want is another thing

[Redflag]

although I have him down as being an Internet warrior who jumped on Wenger's band-wagon years ago and now can't get off it.
He also once claimed that we had never signed a big name player at Arsenal. Says it all really.

[Classic Jorge]

It's just weird that we're all thinking of chucking ourselves off of bridges when in truth it's basically just a contraction. It's a perfectly natural thing. We're set up rather solidly, there's nothing fundamentally wrong there.

We're like addicts at times, crack addicts. Always wanting more, more and faster.

[plastic james]

to see the bigger picture......that doesn't mean he cant see our current problems....

redflag..i respect your opinions....but we cant all be hotheaded and emotional wrecks ....i like the fact that some of our fans are composed and level headed

otherwise ..we'll look like liverpool fans

[Classic Jorge]

Everyone of them was at least a bit of a punt, every one a had at least a question mark over them.

[Peter]

Seriously, dont even start to mount an argument about dennis being flawed or having question marks over him. I knew he was a f**king genius and so did the rest of the world.

Admittedly, that is the only one i can think of, and in general you have a point :-)

[3rd Generation Gooner]

[Peter]

Without that it is a kickabout over a few beers.

I agree, we were never going to ein tonight and we didnt find out anything new, anything we didnt already know. There is no point getting upset.

But again, wenger probsbly needs to stop bull****ting everyone with his belief in this squad. It isnt working. It angers the fans and it clearly doesnt convince the players. Maybe a kick up the arse and a bit of honesty is worth a go.

[Classic Jorge]

He wasnt considered an outstanding player. Not at the time, and I'm one of his biggest fans.

He was big for us, mind.

[Classic Jorge]

[Redflag]

Ian Wright, Denis Bergkamp,ec,. Wenger doesn't like signing 'star name' players,fact.

[Peter]

And the media were falling over themselves.

If he isnt a marquee signing then i dont know what is. Messi and ronaldo i suppose, and nobody else.

[Classic Jorge]

so there was one nugget of truth in the whole thing.

that said, it also contained the line "we do suck as a business football model" which I felt worthy of at least some derision.

[Redflag]

all the players I listed were top ones at the time we signed the,maybe Wrighty is pushing the boat out a bit,but he was the type of signing that we neeed this season , rather than some c**t from the French league.

[Classic Jorge]

I was ecstatic. I remember there being more commotion about the signings of Collymore and Ferdinand the same summer though.

[Peter]

And it is dennis.

[Redflag]

:-)
Malcolm M'c Donald at the time was a marquee signing ,Kenny Samson,
another one .

[Classic Jorge]

In fact, didnt he miss out on the 1990 world cup squad's third place due to doubts over a healing broken finger?

[Peter]

The ghost, the man who wasnt there.

He was a 'seen etter days' signings in the mariner/woodcock mould.

[Classic Jorge]

[7evens]

[Peter]

[Classic Jorge]

I know. God a flop.

It's a fact though.

[Classic Jorge]

[plastic james]

but i also remember doubt mixed with excitement.... excitement because he was one of the most famous players in world football...doubt because he was a complete flop at inter

i personally thought henry was a marque signing and was very happy that day....i was gutted when juve signed him....and thought i'll never see him play for us.....just like dennis he was a flop in italy and we got him 8 months later

kanu and overmars were also very exiting signings, i watched them play for ajax....and obviously kanu for inter and nigeria...

however in all cases...we took a chance on players who flopped elsewhere....i knew nothing about vieira...but he was on the bench for milan.....and petit was a complete stranger for me......pires was going no where in marseille and ppl were suprised we paid 7 million for him

the only world class player on top of his game we signed was sol campbell...during wengers era....the rest was potential, and gambles..

[Redflag]

ky TV money and Premiership deals (as it was back then).
Maradona never came to England or any of the other big name foreign ones .We did sign some big name British players though over the years.