I'm almost in agreement with East Upper (though most of his utterances reveal him to be a ****). The

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

idea that the true fan gets behind the team and manager regardless is a recent concept and, it is true, that Nic is exceptional in his unwavering, bovine loyalty.

In the 70's we were by no means averse to giving players a proper ****ing from the terraces when they failed to perform. I recall the first half of the 74/75 season we had a running shouting match with Bertie Mee, primarily for his insistence on benching Charlie (the real one) and his taking exception with us foul mouthed yobbos in the North Bank - he complained about us to the tabloids. "Bertie Mee's a deaf man, Bertie Mee's a deaf man" - "We ...want...Charlie!!"

And his complaints about the language had us all ironically singing "We ain't swearing anymore" until the inevitable goal went in against us when we let rip with a tirade of fine old anglo-saxon.

The point is, even though he had delivered a double just three years before, the idea that he was beyond reproach and should be revered and respected was utterly ridiculous.

[East Upper for Supper]

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

[Progbook]

[Progbook]

[Nicosia Gooner]

winning trophies

For me that isn't the most important issue, I have been through longer periods without a trophy; Provided we are going in the right direction then I am prepared to be patient.

What we all have to remember is that we currently simply don't have the finances to challenge clubs like Man City, Chelsea and ManU but I am hoping that will change soon.

I will feel exactly the same way regardless who the manager is, it just happened to be Wenger at this particular time, who also happened to be the most successful manager of our club.

Of course meanwhile I am here to be insulted by Upper but that says more about him than me.

[East Upper for Supper]

Clubs with far less than we have. Poor management and a constant whine that 4th is a trophy while charging the highest price in football. It's predictable and boring. As for Wenger he isn't my favorite manager, he gets 7m a year, he has far better resources than most yet spunked 17m on crap like Gervinho and Santos. He can't take criticism and cries like a baby when it's aimed at him. As for you. .. well you talk ****.

[arse-nick (avid-analogue-addict)]

[arse-nick (avid-analogue-addict)]

[Hendon Gooner (Only Easy Day Was Yesterday))]

We have something like 9 or so below average squad players on salaries of £50K to £90K per week.

Why not ditch them and spend the money on 3 or 4 high quality proven players?

FFS we are still paying Bendtner and Denilson's wages.

Remember how much we spunked on that crap Korean player?

And don't mention Almunia or Diaby.....

http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/banghead.gif

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

While I agree that our spending needs to be much more efficient, there is an element of risk with every transfer deal - some of them will turn out to be bad decisions.

[East Upper for Supper]

[Nicosia Gooner]

years

[Nicosia Gooner]

[Nicosia Gooner]

what they are, and putting numbers out is out of order. They obviously over paid certain players (this is obvious as they rather not play than be transferred) that is another problem they need to fix

However, the plusses are way over the munusses and you all know that. A lot of clubs would love to have our problems.

[Peter]

That is a tough one to argue, seriously.

[Peter]

And the more you asked to get from it, the more likely youare to take risks, some of which wont pay off.

[Nicosia Gooner]

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

He has been forced to deal with his team being in a constant state of flux - thanks in no small part to our financial inferiority compared with the world's other top clubs. We have had to cut our cloth according to our jib and that has cost us.

Whether or not you can say that any other manager in the world would have done better is another matter. Some of us believe that we have actually overachieved with Wenger, and we should keep the faith as he is the man to lead us to success when funds from our improved sponsorship deals come through (although it will still be a steep uphill battle).

[Bergkamp's Brain]

[Bergkamp's Brain]

[Nicosia Gooner]

[Bergkamp's Brain]

I'm interested in your opinion.

[Bergkamp's Brain]

[redgunamo]

players all the time?

And it also ignores the fact that the main reason Wenger's skills were attractive to us in the first place was His ability to know exactly when to move players on, when they were past their best. Added to the fact that He also tended to get good money for them.

If we were losing our best players at a loss then, of course, that would be a different matter entirely. As would any "footballistic" loss.

[redgunamo]

Football clubs change managers all the time. For better or worse.

The devotion to this particular manager is slightly baffling, especially as it mostly comes from those who also tell us that trophies aren't everything, while arguing that He is our most-decorated manager ever.

If the argument was that no manager of the AFC should ever be sacked then that would be different.

[Bergkamp's Brain]

Dein wanted him in before they hied Rioch, but he couldn't get out of his contract in Japan.

[Fast Eddie :L:]

We have the squad I think.

Wenger stubbornly refuses to alter our playing strategy and methods. That is his fault and no-one elses.

[Nicosia Gooner]

example, they have built one of the best stadium's in the world without a multin-billionaire to help us out yet our finances are among the best in world football.

Despite a few bad transfers what Wenger has been doing for Arsenal with the lack of resources have been the envy of many clubs in Europe and I see no reason why this will change.

With additional resources I really believe the good times will be with us again soon.

[East Upper for Supper]

After season and the utter poor performances and defensive pantomime that's always blamed on limited resources rather than accountability that stops at the manager. No one expects to compete with City or Chelsea in the money stakes but performances like Norwich or the one at Wembley is always not the managers fault but lack of resources.

[ArseMart - Enjoy every sandwich]

Even on the Sunday Suplement this morning they started by talking about the fans signing "You don't know what you're doing" to Wenger and ended up talking about Financial Fair Play.

FFP didn't take off our 2 international forwards and replace them with an average winger and a defensive midfielder.

FFP didn't make the players look like they didn't give a **** for the 3rd away game in a row.

FFP didn't make us continue to play a possession game when we clearly don't have the players to do it anymore.

[East Upper for Supper]

[redgunamo]

It's still football, after all.

[Doublespeak]

[ArseMart - Enjoy every sandwich]

That makes us no better than Leeds.

[Nicosia Gooner]

mean that I don't get angry and frustrated with the team and Wenger. I have never suggested that Wenger was perfect, far from it, but at the same time I still believe he is the right man for the job.

[Nicosia Gooner]

[East Upper for Supper]

Constantly letting Top players contracts run down, buying Santos for seven f**king million supposed pounds we were short of are just a few non ffp reasons plucked from season after season of stubborn negligence.

[Peter]

There isnt a problem.

[Nicosia Gooner]

obviously I think is ridiculous

[redgunamo]

if there was (had been?) FFP then we'd still have all those great players Wenger found for us that financially doped clubs, and Manchester United, have bought from us for the money we needed to pay for the new stadium we built in order to compete with all the clubs that will fall foul of FFP, and in order not to fall foul of FFP ourselves.

If you follow.

[Bergkamp's Brain]

in truth finances do not concern me, or most Arsenal fans for that matter. We aren't going to celebrate posting profits. What we do not want is a scenario that can lead to a Leeds Utd or get even close.

I disagree that Wenger is doing the best he can with the resources we have. I think he still wants to play the football but cannot get the players he wants. Therefore he needs to adapt a bit and we need to be harder to play against. Of course I want us to win trophies but we need to get the playing side of things right, first. We do that and the trophies closer to our reach.

[East Upper for Supper]

With say Wigan or Bradford Simply because they will never be as big a club like us and therefore have the same financial clout like negotiating 150m for stadium naming rights?

[Nicosia Gooner]

[ArseMart - Enjoy every sandwich]

essentailly told someone that he wanted and needed defensive coaching but was left to "work things out on his" own as that's Wenger's way.

Well that's fine when you've got a back four around with over 2000 senior games under their belts. They can make him stand in the right place. But when you haven't the players need coaching.

George Graham's team defended well for 2 reasons.

1) From 1992 onwards the team consisted of 9 defenders and Ian Wright

2) He trained the defenders non-stop

[redgunamo]

Oddly enough, especially from our point of view as the Arsenal football club.

[redgunamo]

I can't remember when we won the league as pre-season favourites.

I'd even go so far as to say that, footballistically, Wenger now bitterly regrets the original "fourth place trophy" comment and wishes He'd never said it.

[redgunamo]

Perhaps paying your players more really does make them better players? For example, I don't think any of us felt that Clichy would ever win the Premier League, did we?

[Bergkamp's Brain]

he looks a much better player at City becuase he is in a better unit.

People have been moaning at Vermaelen this season being ****e. He is a good fefender playing in a weak unit.

If Wenger can't get the players he wants, he has to change the way he plays. If that means sacrificing some of the attacking desire for a more solid team, then so be it.

[redgunamo]

don't you? Rather than getting the manager to change?

[JohnnyPuma]

Wenger has made mistakes,but he has also done a lot of things right.

1.There is in fact a strong correlation between money spent on wages and league finish. This suggests that the stronger the finances,the higher the finish. We are number 4 or 5 in terms of wages, so what we should expect is a finish in 4th or 5th. Wenger has delivered this every year and sometimes done even better. And then we have not even included transfer spending.
To expect him to outperform higher spenders year after year just shows that you do not understand how difficult it is.
2. Sometimes players fail. This happens in every club. When he can not buy the top,top players,Wenger is forced to take a higher gamble. You bring in cheaper players and hope they continue to improve. Sometimes it is going to fail. The difference is that failures in the transfer market is going to hit us harder tha say Chelsea. We could not deal with the failure of a. 50 mill Torres or a 35mill Shevchenko. Chelsea can.
3.It is very disturbing to see so many on this board turning into 'Liverpool supporters',feeling they they deserve trophies just because we have won trophies in the past. It is a different game now,than when we won our last championship. Chelsea was at that time just starting to pump money into the game, then came city and others. The formula required to win is different than it was years ago.
4.Changing manager often sounds appealing,but is rarely as successful as intended. Without the stability in management,we may actually have done a lot worse. Look at Liverpool. I hear a lot of people calling for Wenger to go,but seldom hear any suggestions for new managers. If you are going to moan about Wenger,at least put forward an alternative.
5. There are several reasons for our lack of trophies:Finances, a number of bad buys, wage structure, best players sold every year, harder competition,lack of success in marketing deals, conflict between major shareholders, an agent that destabilises our players etc,etc

[Nicosia Gooner]

[redgunamo]

[Bergkamp's Brain]

that doesn't mean that he is achieving everything that he possibly can, with the players and resources at his disposal.

[Bergkamp's Brain]

[redgunamo]

[Nicosia Gooner]

[Peter]

They want champions league money an he gets it for them. Hence they are happy, hence they wont sack him.

['Neg]

[Bergkamp's Brain]

[Peter]

But would another manager have managed to get those players? He might have ****ter players, got plenty out of them and produce a worse team.

Overall wenger achieves a decent return on resources. To me the only solution is the resources. He needs more help. He isnt going to change.

If you want a hound to run faster, get a faster hound http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/smile.gif

[redgunamo]

Hence my question.

[redgunamo]

[Peter]

[redgunamo]

I'm trying to ask, if we paid our players what Manchester City are paying theirs, would they then be good enough to win us the league?

Are they good enough and are we just not getting the best out of them? Or are they not good enough and are, in fact, doing very well to just qualify for the Champions League?

I merely used Clichy as the obvious example.

[redgunamo]

[redgunamo]

[Peter]

[redgunamo]

Not that it would make much difference, I suppose.

[redgunamo]

[Bergkamp's Brain]

fair point about attracting players to the club. Wenger's reputation counts for a lot there. But having got them, he needs to be getting the best out of them. Surely he can get a team to defend or a to have a plan to win the ball back?

[Bergkamp's Brain]

i.e. if the board set you a level and you achieve it, then you are doing a good job. MAnagers who get sacked do so because they do not achieve that level

[JohnnyPuma]

My worry is that we will become like Liverpool,trying everything to win the league again with no sense of direction,strategy or purpose,with fans 'demanding' trophies. And getting further and further away every year.

Liverpool has at last started thinking long-term about things. So should we.

Whether or not Wenger is the right man,depends on what direction the club should move in.

I believe he has exceeded expectations in the last few years,and that we would struggle finding a replacement willing and able to work within the same constraints.

[redgunamo]

You seem to be suggesting you think they are, but the manager isn't doing something that ought to be done in order to prove it, actually win it?

On the other hand, many are saying they can't be good enough because we don't have the resources in any case.

Which is it?

[redgunamo]

I would find that hard to believe.

['Neg]

Your earlier post seemed imply a direct correllation between him improving (possibly because of a pay rise) and City winning the league. I think other factors have been much more important in their league win.
And as suggested by others, he probably just looked slightly better because he was part of a better unit.

Also, if some players seem to be in a comfort zone at Arsenal, I do doubt more pay would be likely to change attitudes.
Maybe if we made more effort to surround top players with other high quality players, they would be more motivated to stay and to play better. So imo, investment in incoming transfers would be more beneficial than raising wages for the current squad.

[Bergkamp's Brain]

I don't believe that the team is set up to get the best out the group because they are not good enough to play the football Wenger wants. Winning the title doesn't even come into it.

[redgunamo]

And replacements for Wenger will be queuing up around the streets, we needn't worry on that score.

[71 Guns - channeling the spirit of Mr Hat]

[redgunamo]

[arse-nick (avid-analogue-addict)]

[redgunamo]

the players we have "play better" http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/shrug.gif

What was stopping him being "part of a better unit" with us, considering that many felt that he himself was the weakest link in any such unit?

[Peter]

The point is what a manager gets out of the resources, not just out of the team.