How about a show of appreciation for Arsene Wenger's achievement of

[Monty91]

13 straight year of reaching the CL knock-out stages?

AW http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/bow.gif

[Doughboy-TSL]

[Classic Jorge]

[Peter]

[Johnny1886]

[Dorset Gooner]

[Free SL]

we should get to the 1/4 final nearly every year, getting out of the group stage should be a given (I know football doesn't work like that in reality)

[Monty91]

footballistically) and not many clubs anywhere in Europe have managed the same.

Not faint praise, imo.

[Classic Jorge]

[JJSB]

When was the last time we had a tough group? As the seeds, you should progress anyway

[Monty91]

reaching the knock out stages

[Peter]

Same with the top four. It is a remarkably consistent achievement. Unfortunately we also consistently fall short of actual, tangible, silver-laden success.

Arsene only trumpets these 'successes' for our benefit. Privately he is far more disappointed than any of us every time we fail to win something. I bet it hurts him like hell.

[Peter]

Consistency is merely that. Consistent failure is failure.

[Brentwood]

If Henry had just put that chance away, we were 2-0 up http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/cry.gif I seriously think that game has psychologically damaged me

[Peter]

Any more than that.

Consistency http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/bow.gif

[Ashberto]

negotiated. :kerching:

At least one assumes that they are being (re)negotiated and not being ignored and left to run down like Sagna's alleged contract :baghead::gazidisout:

Actually, if that does happen then maybe Allied Carpets gets the shirt deal on a Bosman.

[Monty91]

let go of the sentimental and childish idea that success without trophies is not possible.

[Classic Jorge]

Consistently achieving a modest level of success, and occasionally surpassing it, is surely the best way. If for nothing else than for the sake of planning

[Free SL]

but of the last 12 times we have been to 1 final, and lost one semi. With the teams we have had, our record in the competition (while consistent) isn't really good enough imo, especially between 1998 and 2004 when we failed to progress beyond the 1/4 final.

[Monty91]

in the group stage, his record would be considered by many as more successful.

[Free SL]

http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/hehe.gif

[Monty91]

is success.

[Peter]

Of itself.

Diaby's injury recordis remarkably consistent, for example http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/smile.gif

Knock out stages is the only thing you can demand. Beyond that is a bonus. But as stated many, many times before, real success lies in that bonus. Finishing fourth is fine, but not every single year for the rest of your life.

Real successis when you surpass expectations.

[Ears are alight]

[Classic Jorge]

[Ashberto]

[Monty91]

There is no answer to this. It's a matter of perspective.

[Classic Jorge]

[Peter]

Wanting to win something is childish and sentimental http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/hehe.gif http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/bow.gif

I could come back at you and accuse you of being utterly brainwashed by the lower expectations of our transitional period.

And your failure to distnguish between what is acceptable in the current context, and what is actually worthy pf genuine celebration.

It is the difference between satisfaction and genuine joy. Between a **** and sex, if you will http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/smile.gif

[Monty91]

[Peter]

Bit like rvp. Maybe we should leave them all on one year contracts.

[Monty91]

wanting to win something is childish and sentimental.

[PSRB]

[Peter]

Stoke not winning the league isnt failure. Being relegated is.

Us finishing outside the top four is failure. We all agree on that. What we cant quite agreeon is what constitutes success.

[JJSB]

in recent years, winning it once, know which I'd prefer. How have we gone from a club that won doubles and went unbeaten in a season, to trumpeting "achievements" like this? Bit cringeworthy IMO, even if the climate has changed

[Classic Jorge]

[Classic Jorge]

[Ashberto]

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

Aided of course by our seeding which usually allows us to be in a relatively pish group.

I now struggle with the Champions League, I see it as nothing other than a revenue vehicle.

[Classic Jorge]

[JJSB]

And piss poor compared to City's groups over the last two seasons.

[Classic Jorge]

[PSRB]

unless we win the bloody thing of course

[Ears are alight]

and bearing in mind this is a secondary deal behind the main shirt deal(s), then how about JVC?

[Peter]

You stated that equating success with trophies was childish and sentimental.

Assuming we all want success, and that this is how i define it, it follows logically that my desire for trophies is childish and sentimental, albeit indirectly.

But i will allow your objection. The original statement was ridiculous enough without me needing to expand it.

I suppose i should feel sory for all those other clubs out there, childishly chasing shiny pots, being disappointed when they dont win them, and failing to comprehend the true nature of success. Thank god we are so enlightened. And thank you monty http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/bow.gif

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

Of course it could happen in the future.

And cue a response about Chelsea in 3 ....

[Classic Jorge]

[Peter]

Daylight f**king robbery http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/smile.gif

[Ashberto]

[Ashberto]

kit deal.

[Classic Jorge]

[Ears are alight]

or something like that. You seem to be able to fragment the deals much more now to maximise the overall take.

Actually this is a sentimental thing, not a profit maximising thing.

http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/shrug.gif

[Monty91]

Winning trophies is the ultimate aim, and the ultimate barometer of success, but i don't see not winning them as necessarily equating to failure, simply because the implication is that someone can legitimitely be expected to have done better.

In Arsene Wenger's case, I simply don't think he can have been expected to have done better. He has got the very most out of his teams and players based on the resources available.

In any other business context, that would be be worthy of a big fat bonus. You seem to see football in a very corporate way, so why not on this occasion?

[Norn Iron]

I think we can with a favourable draw.

I know Barcelona, Real Madrid are all better than us but we have a very good record at home. We're capable of going away from home and scoring goals.

If we got to a semi final against Dortmund, Juventus, AC Milan, Bayern..... no reason why we can't beat those teams over 2 legs.

[Ears are alight]

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

Domestic cup success and European qualification.

Not sure why choice has to come into it.

[Peter]

If you restrict me to worthless trophies then clearly, by definition, i will consider them worthless.

How about winning the league or 4th place? How about finishing second instead of finishing fourth? How about mounting a vaguely realistic challenge for either of those competitions we do actually believe are worth winning?

No, it isnt a trophy, but surely looking like winning one is better than not.

Or, to really embrace the true spirit of improvement, how about fourth place AND the Carling Cup? Or the FA Cup?

[Peter]

http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/smile.gif

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

Just don't see it myself.

[JJSB]

Though every season there's a group of death where 3 teams have realistic prospects. Arguably two groups this season with Chelsea too. So when did we, as seeds, last have a group like that?

[Peter]

I suppose i am saying that there is a middle ground between success and failure- the middle ground that keeps a guy comfortably in his job without the constant sound of popping champagne corks all arpund him.

That is where we are. It is an admirable achievement in a lot of ways- you may see it as miraculous given the context. But we both know that this kind of success doesnt have grown men weeping in each others arms. It doesnt launch street parties, or open top bus parades.

So i dont criticise arsene. But when someone presents this moderate achievement as a cause for celebrstion i am likely to turn my mind to what might have been- note i said might, not should.

And as i said in a previous post, expectstions are all very well. Real,tangible success comes in suprassing them. Arsene used to do this and set a very, very high ceiling.

[Monty91]

Didn't mention "celebrating" anything, but I guess you saw it as a chance to push your straw man agenda.

[Ashberto]

and drop out of the CL long term? A slightly tougher call.

The consistency that Wenger was talking about is about qualifying for the CL every year and advancing to the knockout stage every year. Some might say 'meh' its not really success, but if we lose that status we could end up like Liverpool.

Fourth place is actually a bit **** because you haven't really qualified yet, but third place is a massive achievement for our club when looked at rationally. Not as nice as first place, obviously, but it is still an achievement, unless clinging to the childish and sentimental notion that success is only about trophies, and, erm, only certain trophies, that 99% or more of football clubs have absolutely zero chance of ever winning.

[Ashberto]

but CL qualification alone = failure, then logically it means that the difference between success and failure is the domestic cup.

Therefore the League Cup is an important competition to win.

[Peter]