I am halfway through watching the excellent Ken Burns documentary on the US Civil War

[Peter]

Yes, I'm forever watching that. One always forgets that the Union barely won a battle up to Gettysburg, but once they won that, it was basically all over bar the shouting.

There is much to suggest that had Stonewall Jackson not been killed in a freak accident the month before then the South would have stood a far better chance at Gettysburg. THe hill they were five minutes too slow in taking because Lee's orders were misunderstood; had they taken the hill then the fateful charge the following day wouldn't have happened.

I stopped at the part where Shelby Foote says that every Southern boy is able to put himself in that field at 1pm, just before the charge and drink in the last moment where victory was still possible.....I had to turn it off and weep like a baby..

That said, the situation at Vicksburg was dire and even victory at Gettysburg wasnt enough. He needed to draw Grant and his resources northwards to ensure that Vicksburg held and Gettysburg came too late- Vicksburg surrendered the following day.

[Burney]

There is much to suggest that had Stonewall Jackson not been killed in a freak accident the month before then the South would have stood a far better chance at Gettysburg. THe hill they were five minutes too slow in taking because Lee's orders were misunderstood; had they taken the hill then the fateful charge the following day wouldn't have happened.

I stopped at the part where Shelby Foote says that every Southern boy is able to put himself in that field at 1pm, just before the charge and drink in the last moment where victory was still possible.....I had to turn it off and weep like a baby..

That said, the situation at Vicksburg was dire and even victory at Gettysburg wasnt enough. He needed to draw Grant and his resources northwards to ensure that Vicksburg held and Gettysburg came too late- Vicksburg surrendered the following day.

Yes. Friendly fire wasn't it for old Stonewall? Mind you, he struck one as less than amusing company, so no great loss.

I do love Shelby Foote's voice. Someone should have got him to do audiobooks of William Faulkner novels. He'd have been perfect.

To be honest, I don't think the south could ever have actually won militarily. However many battles they'd won, the sheer weight of industry, resources and men would have told eventually.

[Pokster]

Yes. Friendly fire wasn't it for old Stonewall? Mind you, he struck one as less than amusing company, so no great loss.

I do love Shelby Foote's voice. Someone should have got him to do audiobooks of William Faulkner novels. He'd have been perfect.

To be honest, I don't think the south could ever have actually won militarily. However many battles they'd won, the sheer weight of industry, resources and men would have told eventually.

The North always come out on top b

[Peter]

Yes. Friendly fire wasn't it for old Stonewall? Mind you, he struck one as less than amusing company, so no great loss.

I do love Shelby Foote's voice. Someone should have got him to do audiobooks of William Faulkner novels. He'd have been perfect.

To be honest, I don't think the south could ever have actually won militarily. However many battles they'd won, the sheer weight of industry, resources and men would have told eventually.

Stonewall was shot in the arm by his own troops while inspecting the battlefield after the battle. Ridiculous accident....

They could never have won the war completely on the battlefield and I think Lee knew this. His hope was to wage an aggressive war against the Union troops in the East and drive as far Northward as possible. If he could have destroyed that army then the picture would have changed drastically.

The greater issue of the Southern Cause was a loser from the start. The 'way of life' was doomed in the long term, as all backward, static social and economic systems are.

[Burney]

Stonewall was shot in the arm by his own troops while inspecting the battlefield after the battle. Ridiculous accident....

They could never have won the war completely on the battlefield and I think Lee knew this. His hope was to wage an aggressive war against the Union troops in the East and drive as far Northward as possible. If he could have destroyed that army then the picture would have changed drastically.

The greater issue of the Southern Cause was a loser from the start. The 'way of life' was doomed in the long term, as all backward, static social and economic systems are.

Yes. In fact, there's also a strong argument that slavery retarded technological, economic and industrial development, since it meant that, rather than develop more efficient technology, they could just chuck manpower at the problem.

[Ash]

Yes. In fact, there's also a strong argument that slavery retarded technological, economic and industrial development, since it meant that, rather than develop more efficient technology, they could just chuck manpower at the problem.

The same can be said for any economy dependent on low labour costs. One of the reasons this country has flat-lined on productivity is that there is no incentive to develop more efficient capital when there is an inexhaustible supply of cheap, imported labour.

[Burney]

The same can be said for any economy dependent on low labour costs. One of the reasons this country has flat-lined on productivity is that there is no incentive to develop more efficient capital when there is an inexhaustible supply of cheap, imported labour.

Hmmm. That argument is effectively countered by the Industrial Revolution, though, a.

We were unprecedentedly inventive whilst also paying the workers fúck all.

[Ash]

Hmmm. That argument is effectively countered by the Industrial Revolution, though, a.

We were unprecedentedly inventive whilst also paying the workers fúck all.

I expect the difference is the net/option of welfare.

[Peter]

Yes. In fact, there's also a strong argument that slavery retarded technological, economic and industrial development, since it meant that, rather than develop more efficient technology, they could just chuck manpower at the problem.

A fact that seems obvious to us now but wouldn't have to them. Its the root cause of the civil war in the sense that slavery permitted the two parts of the country to grow so far apart economically over a century that so many areas of policy would divide them.

I read a rather hilarious piece about changing the name of a school from washington-Lee to just Washington. THe argument seemed to be that although Washington had owned slaves he had fought a war that wasnt treason and forged a democracy. Lee had fought a war of treason and had owned slaves.

Kind of stepped over the fact that the revolutionary war WAS an act of treason, and that the difference between revolution and treason is victory. He also forged a democracy that allowed slavery. Funnier still, almost all the slaves that Lee owned were acquired through marriage to.....Martha Washington's great grand daughter. He inherited the descendants of the same slaves Washington had owned....

But yeah, the first one is a hero and the second a slave-owning racist....

[eastgermanautos]

A fact that seems obvious to us now but wouldn't have to them. Its the root cause of the civil war in the sense that slavery permitted the two parts of the country to grow so far apart economically over a century that so many areas of policy would divide them.

I read a rather hilarious piece about changing the name of a school from washington-Lee to just Washington. THe argument seemed to be that although Washington had owned slaves he had fought a war that wasnt treason and forged a democracy. Lee had fought a war of treason and had owned slaves.

Kind of stepped over the fact that the revolutionary war WAS an act of treason, and that the difference between revolution and treason is victory. He also forged a democracy that allowed slavery. Funnier still, almost all the slaves that Lee owned were acquired through marriage to.....Martha Washington's great grand daughter. He inherited the descendants of the same slaves Washington had owned....

But yeah, the first one is a hero and the second a slave-owning racist....

Well, don't you know a lot!