What dark, dark arts they now practise in the Kremlin. They murder journalists then

[Ash]

Equally it would be nice if people who refuse to admit that Russia is a gangster state run by gangsters would not use this incident to discredit all reports of the atrocities/criminal activity committed by Putin and his gang.

I look forward to this incident being leveraged by Vlad when the MH17 investigation is completed by JIT and provides a mountain of evidence that the Russians were guilty of murdering 283 people and refusing to admit it.

The 'mountain' of evidence being provided by ... wait for it ... the Ukrainian secret service? And the freelance NATO shill Bellingcat?

What possible motive would the Russian government have for shooting down that aircraft? It may have been a mistake by anti-Kiev forces but Cui Bono? Not the Kremlin.

[WES]

The 'mountain' of evidence being provided by ... wait for it ... the Ukrainian secret service? And the freelance NATO shill Bellingcat?

What possible motive would the Russian government have for shooting down that aircraft? It may have been a mistake by anti-Kiev forces but Cui Bono? Not the Kremlin.

Nice to see you haven't lost your objectivity on all things Russian, Ash.

No, that would be the mountain of evidence from the international investigation team, from the Guardian that noted right wing paper:

The joint investigation team (JIT) looking into the incident is made up of Dutch prosecutors and police and others from Australia, Malaysia and Ukraine. They showed photos and video of the convoy that carried the missile system over the border from Russia to Ukraine, and a series of distinctive markings and serial numbers which they said had enabled them to trace the exact system used in the attack, and trace it to the 53rd brigade.

And the motive was that they made a mistake. The problem being that they made it when in an area they weren't meant to be in, an area they denied they had entered.

Does Putin have a video of you p1ssing on prostitutes, Ash?

[Peter]

Nice to see you haven't lost your objectivity on all things Russian, Ash.

No, that would be the mountain of evidence from the international investigation team, from the Guardian that noted right wing paper:

The joint investigation team (JIT) looking into the incident is made up of Dutch prosecutors and police and others from Australia, Malaysia and Ukraine. They showed photos and video of the convoy that carried the missile system over the border from Russia to Ukraine, and a series of distinctive markings and serial numbers which they said had enabled them to trace the exact system used in the attack, and trace it to the 53rd brigade.

And the motive was that they made a mistake. The problem being that they made it when in an area they weren't meant to be in, an area they denied they had entered.

Does Putin have a video of you p1ssing on prostitutes, Ash?

Their motive was that they made a mistake? So they deliberately did the wrong thing? That isa head ****.

Yet more evidence of Russian incompetence. When they finally manage to kill people it is the wrong bloody people.

Useless ****s....

[WES]

Their motive was that they made a mistake? So they deliberately did the wrong thing? That isa head ****.

Yet more evidence of Russian incompetence. When they finally manage to kill people it is the wrong bloody people.

Useless ****s....

Oh the Russians have always been phenomenal f*ckups when it comes to war, Peter. If they hadn't outnumbered the Nazis by about 5 to 1 and hadn't had a complete disregard for the lives of their soldiers they would all be speaking German right now. As might the French, actually.

Anyway, flippancy aside, the point is that Putin is a gangster and Russia is a gangster state, something that the opposition in Russia is only too happy to tell you and something that has a mountain of evidence on its side.

Lord knows that Ash does with his not inconsiderable intellectual capacity when someone mentions Russia.

[Peter]

Oh the Russians have always been phenomenal f*ckups when it comes to war, Peter. If they hadn't outnumbered the Nazis by about 5 to 1 and hadn't had a complete disregard for the lives of their soldiers they would all be speaking German right now. As might the French, actually.

Anyway, flippancy aside, the point is that Putin is a gangster and Russia is a gangster state, something that the opposition in Russia is only too happy to tell you and something that has a mountain of evidence on its side.

Lord knows that Ash does with his not inconsiderable intellectual capacity when someone mentions Russia.

I dont think they did outnumber the nazis 5 to 1 and if it werent for them we would all 'be speaking german rightnow'.....

Anyway, my point is I think the Russians get a bad press

[WES]

I dont think they did outnumber the nazis 5 to 1 and if it werent for them we would all 'be speaking german rightnow'.....

Anyway, my point is I think the Russians get a bad press

Russians generally and historically - yes, absolutely.

The Putin regime? No, it deserves far worse than it is getting.

[Peter]

Russians generally and historically - yes, absolutely.

The Putin regime? No, it deserves far worse than it is getting.

Well they would get a far worse press if they didn't keep killing them all. So you can kind of see why they would it (not that I am saying they do).....

[Ash]

Nice to see you haven't lost your objectivity on all things Russian, Ash.

No, that would be the mountain of evidence from the international investigation team, from the Guardian that noted right wing paper:

The joint investigation team (JIT) looking into the incident is made up of Dutch prosecutors and police and others from Australia, Malaysia and Ukraine. They showed photos and video of the convoy that carried the missile system over the border from Russia to Ukraine, and a series of distinctive markings and serial numbers which they said had enabled them to trace the exact system used in the attack, and trace it to the 53rd brigade.

And the motive was that they made a mistake. The problem being that they made it when in an area they weren't meant to be in, an area they denied they had entered.

Does Putin have a video of you p1ssing on prostitutes, Ash?

The Guardian is a fervently anti-Russian publication btw, and I understand the JIT is using Ukrainian sources while rejecting Russian ones. Hardly balanced. I can't find the link right now where the Ukrainian mililtary claimed to have had the border with Russia completely sealed at the time this alleged missile system crossed the border but if you are genuinely interested I can try and dig it up for you. I think you will find that pro-Kiev forces had BUK missiles too, FWIW.

And a mistake isn't a motive, as I said earlier.

No, Vlado doesn't have a video of me pissing on prostitues. Would you like to talk about Trump-Russia too, and how those allegations against Russia are going after a year and a half of intensive investigations?

Or are you only really interested in making personal attacks against me for not subscribing to the prevailing narrative?

[WES]

The Guardian is a fervently anti-Russian publication btw, and I understand the JIT is using Ukrainian sources while rejecting Russian ones. Hardly balanced. I can't find the link right now where the Ukrainian mililtary claimed to have had the border with Russia completely sealed at the time this alleged missile system crossed the border but if you are genuinely interested I can try and dig it up for you. I think you will find that pro-Kiev forces had BUK missiles too, FWIW.

And a mistake isn't a motive, as I said earlier.

No, Vlado doesn't have a video of me pissing on prostitues. Would you like to talk about Trump-Russia too, and how those allegations against Russia are going after a year and a half of intensive investigations?

Or are you only really interested in making personal attacks against me for not subscribing to the prevailing narrative?

The motive being a mistake was a tongue in cheek comment, thought that was obvious. Same with the pissing prostitutes. They made a mistake and then covered it up for obvious reasons.

You know why I think you lack objectivity on this subject, Ash. It's because your justifications for you skepticism are illogical and you are not an illogical man.

See above. First you claim that the Ukrainian sources can't be trusted. Then you claim the Russians couldn't have shot down the airliner because the Ukrainians claimed to have sealed the border at the time. So sometimes you can trust the Ukrainians and others you can't? And it's beyond the realm of possibility that when they claimed the border was sealed they were wrong?

Sorry, that's just illogical and suggests a lack of objectivity.

[Peter]

The motive being a mistake was a tongue in cheek comment, thought that was obvious. Same with the pissing prostitutes. They made a mistake and then covered it up for obvious reasons.

You know why I think you lack objectivity on this subject, Ash. It's because your justifications for you skepticism are illogical and you are not an illogical man.

See above. First you claim that the Ukrainian sources can't be trusted. Then you claim the Russians couldn't have shot down the airliner because the Ukrainians claimed to have sealed the border at the time. So sometimes you can trust the Ukrainians and others you can't? And it's beyond the realm of possibility that when they claimed the border was sealed they were wrong?

Sorry, that's just illogical and suggests a lack of objectivity.

I dont think he did say Ukrainian sources couldnt be trusted. He said that using Ukrainian sources and not russian ones is unbalanced, which it is. Not wrong, not inaccurate, just unbalanced.

I dont think any of this is a matter of logic. It seems to rest entirely on who one chooses to believe. I choose to believe none of them because I know that all governments lie when it comes to stuff like this. And quite right too.

THe 'evidence' is often referrred to but never completely revealed, for obvious reasons.