Of course there is a mandate to leave, but not a mandate for much else. It was a spectacularly stupid question to ask, because only one of the answers gave a clear way forward.Originally Posted by Monty92
Of course there is a mandate to leave, but not a mandate for much else. It was a spectacularly stupid question to ask, because only one of the answers gave a clear way forward.
The question wasn't stupid, and it was clear. Leave means leave.
God, I'm bored of repeating this.
Should be forced to repeat it until it make some sense though, which it will never do. It doesn't - or does only as much as frankfurter means frankfurter. It is an absolutely ludicrous position to hold - leave should have meant something, people should have been given more to vote on than just a rejection of an idea. People essentially voted for a vacuum at the heart of our government and yet you still nonchalantly dismiss people who say this might have been bad idea as "Project Fear" - another utterly stupid concept. Anyway - enjoy the match, a. Chat Monday
Means as much as 'brexit means brexit'Should be forced to repeat it until it make some sense though, which it will never do. It doesn't - or does only as much as frankfurter means frankfurter. It is an absolutely ludicrous position to hold - leave should have meant something, people should have been given more to vote on than just a rejection of an idea. People essentially voted for a vacuum at the heart of our government and yet you still nonchalantly dismiss people who say this might have been bad idea as "Project Fear" - another utterly stupid concept. Anyway - enjoy the match, a. Chat Monday
"Brexit means Brexit" means exactly what every single key player in the leave campaign (not to mention Cameron, Osborne and many others on the remain side) stated it meant pre-referendum and what they continue to state it means today
The precise way in which we extricate ourselves from the EU institutions that we must leave for Brexit to mean Brexit was not on the ballot paper and neither you nor anyone else would seriously suggest it should have been.
No, it is a politician's answer designed to do nothing but avoid the question."Brexit means Brexit" means exactly what every single key player in the leave campaign (not to mention Cameron, Osborne and many others on the remain side) stated it meant pre-referendum and what they continue to state it means today
The precise way in which we extricate ourselves from the EU institutions that we must leave for Brexit to mean Brexit was not on the ballot paper and neither you nor anyone else would seriously suggest it should have been.
It is not a question of precise extrication, it is a question of fundamentals- the single market, freedom of movement, trade agreements. And I did point out, before the referendum, that it was a little unfair that leavers were being asked to take a leap in the dark- a tiny bit of detail would have made for a more balanced debate. In the end it didn’t matter and people took the gamble anyway.
Either way…. You can make all the excuses you like. The fact is that the statement Brexit means Brexit says precisely nothing and is precisely designed to do so. It is an answer to a question that wants to know what Brexit means- at this stage, the government still don’t really have a clue. So how can it possibly mean anything?
Thank you, Peter. I started to provide pretty much that explanation to dear Monty and then figured it was a waste of my time.
Nice to see you aren't that busy.
Brexit means and always meant leaving the single market, customs union and ECJ and ending freedom of movement. And, of course, negotiating the best trade deal possible with the EU.
What more did you want?
As Monty said, Brexit means leaving the European institutions that comprise the EU. Pro-remain politicians (which is most of them) and pro-remain media (which is most of it) are muddying the water by pretending that it might mean something else (fakebrexit, basically), which encourages others to follow their lead.
As to the difficulties and complexities of this, well yes, it is both of those things but then radical political change like revolution and extraction from supranational entities is never easy. The difficulty of a task should not preclude the option of persuing it even if it is a challenging obstacle. Indeed, the 'technical' argument against attempting it which you are making is cut from the very cloth of the unassailable EU technocracy, where government is seen as a machine that humble voters can never attempt to understand, and can only be operated by the high priests of the machinery who should not be accountable to the odious masses (which the current, left-of-centre ruling class despise as much as their right-wing predecessors).
Welcome to the machine!
Why does it not make sense to be an independent country outside of a supranational entity? National sovereignty has been the standard unit of geopolitical organisation for hundreds of years. Self-determination was considered the key element of post-imperial Europe after WW1 and more globally after WW2 when Britain's own empire was disbanded, along with others.Should be forced to repeat it until it make some sense though, which it will never do. It doesn't - or does only as much as frankfurter means frankfurter. It is an absolutely ludicrous position to hold - leave should have meant something, people should have been given more to vote on than just a rejection of an idea. People essentially voted for a vacuum at the heart of our government and yet you still nonchalantly dismiss people who say this might have been bad idea as "Project Fear" - another utterly stupid concept. Anyway - enjoy the match, a. Chat Monday
Was the concept of self-rule for Ireland merely the 'rejection of an idea' or was it the rejection of a specific supranational entity - the British Empire? Likewise, the rejection of the EU is not the rejection of an 'idea' of Europe, but an actual powerful political contruct. There was probably far less confusion in the minds of thise who voted to leave than of those who are desperately trying to avoid leaving while making it look as if they are.
As for the concerted campaign by pretty much the entire ruling class to persuade voters that the sky would fall on our heads the moment we voted leave, let alone after we actually left, well, call it what you like. Project Fear is not such a bad description imo.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote