I always thought the Speaker's role was simply that of a chairman of the

[Ash]

It's not fair to conflate the Eurozone with the EU.

For all the idiocy of a monetary union without a fiscal union, and the hypocrisy of allowing Fr and Ger to break the budget limit but not Italy, they chose to be in the EZ and have to obey the rules. They can leave if they don't like it. And we all know why they won't.

That doesn't apply to us as EU but non EZ members.

Why it's wrong for the EU to make people vote again 'till they get it right, but fine for May to keep asking Parl to do likewise, I've no idea.

But the point is that on every occassion that EU states voted again, the proposition was supported by their democratically elected national govts, and often the opposition too.

The trouble stems from the fact that most people don't take Europe seriously enough and will therefore use an EU vote to stick two fingers up to the establishment. {Remember when the Greens won 15% here in the late '80s?}

So you often had a case of the public rejecting the vote of a way of sending a message o their rulers (much like Brexit was a protest against austerity andimmigration).

The govt of whichever country would say "Ok, we get it. But look, this deal really is in all our interests. That's why most main parties in most main countries support it. So look, we'll listen to you about the domestic issues that prompted your protest vote but please vote again, cos we don't want to appear the country holding everyone back, do we?"

I accept it's a horrible look. And I wish it hadn't happened as the biggest argument against the 2nd vote I desire is that it looks like the EU telling us to keep voting 'till we get it right. {A la May.}

The EU is far from perfect and maybe Brexit and the coming MEP votes might wake them up a bit. But I would still rather be in the club helping reform it than stuck in an economically destructive limbo with no unilateral escape mechanism, ending up a rule taker with no say in their making.

With the rebate and opt-outs we had the best of both worlds.

Just because some EU members are not in the EZ doesn't make the EZ irrelevant to the EU. It is intrinsic to the trajectory of the project. When a country cannot set its interest rates or float its currency it cannot adapt to the market and will suffer. Therefore the EZ, a core aspect of the EU has failed. You know this, I believe.

Where did I say it was fine for May to keep taking her bill back? You've put the cart before the horse by saying that a second referendum makes the EU look like May. Other way round, chronologically. The fact that national governments regularly support the EU over the wishes of their own people points to the corruption and failure to represent of the political class as a whole. This will change.

The ruling elite will never reform unless they are forced.

[Sir C]

Just because some EU members are not in the EZ doesn't make the EZ irrelevant to the EU. It is intrinsic to the trajectory of the project. When a country cannot set its interest rates or float its currency it cannot adapt to the market and will suffer. Therefore the EZ, a core aspect of the EU has failed. You know this, I believe.

Where did I say it was fine for May to keep taking her bill back? You've put the cart before the horse by saying that a second referendum makes the EU look like May. Other way round, chronologically. The fact that national governments regularly support the EU over the wishes of their own people points to the corruption and failure to represent of the political class as a whole. This will change.

The ruling elite will never reform unless they are forced.

Sadly the demos remains stubbornly bovine.

What we need is a bloody revolution. What we will get is a few outraged healines in the Daily Mail.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Just because some EU members are not in the EZ doesn't make the EZ irrelevant to the EU. It is intrinsic to the trajectory of the project. When a country cannot set its interest rates or float its currency it cannot adapt to the market and will suffer. Therefore the EZ, a core aspect of the EU has failed. You know this, I believe.

Where did I say it was fine for May to keep taking her bill back? You've put the cart before the horse by saying that a second referendum makes the EU look like May. Other way round, chronologically. The fact that national governments regularly support the EU over the wishes of their own people points to the corruption and failure to represent of the political class as a whole. This will change.

The ruling elite will never reform unless they are forced.

But they always do this with the support of the democratically elected domestic govt of the country being forced to vote again.

I don't like it, and it's far from perfect. But like the UK parliament in the C18th, it's heading in the right direction.

I'm sure it will get there eventually, and will do so quicker and more easily with UK involvement.

The EZ will have to change. I don't know in which direction, but it isn't my problem. I was happy with us outside the EZ, outside Schengen and with a rebate.

I also think it will be much easier in the coming decade. The continent won't be dominated by Merkell trying to atone for past crimes. The new leader will have to watch her right flank for the AfD. The rise of populism will keep the federalists in check.

In short, that fückwitted cünt Cameron called the vote at precisely the wrong time - after a banking collapse saw the bankers get off scott free and the public hit with years of austerity, and with Merkel acting like the Holy Roman Emperor and calling every swarthy type near the Med to come and live among us.

If he'd held his nerve for a decade, then things would have gradually come to refrom in our direction during the 2020s.

Though obviously, all the above is just my supposition and has no inherent validity. And, barring some heroic 2nd vote, it will all be hypothetical.