So here it comes - the Labour manifesto and an inevitable surge in the polls

[Ash]

Of course, most of them are stupid enough to think they will somehow be immediately enriched within a couple of months of the actual leave date. They neither understand nor give a hoot about nationhood, sovereignty or democracy. They have simply been hoodwinked into blaming the EU for their misery.

In fact, according to the Ashcroft Poll, the main reason for voting leave was so that "Laws affecting the UK should be made in the UK". That suggests a fairly firm grasp on sovereignty to me.

Also people have indicated that they would be prepared to take a financial hit in the short term as a price to pay for independence.

[barrybueno]

In fact, according to the Ashcroft Poll, the main reason for voting leave was so that "Laws affecting the UK should be made in the UK". That suggests a fairly firm grasp on sovereignty to me.

Also people have indicated that they would be prepared to take a financial hit in the short term as a price to pay for independence.

Ah the Ashcroft poll, my personal fave is "C'mon People (We're Making It Now)" with a nod to "Surprised by the Joy"

What say you Ash

[Ash]

Ah the Ashcroft poll, my personal fave is "C'mon People (We're Making It Now)" with a nod to "Surprised by the Joy"

What say you Ash

I supported Verve in Oxford when they were just an NME band. Arrogant swine they were even then. Wouldn't let us share the dressing room, and we had to drink our rider in the corridor.

[barrybueno]

I supported Verve in Oxford when they were just an NME band. Arrogant swine they were even then. Wouldn't let us share the dressing room, and we had to drink our rider in the corridor.

Sounds like a bittersweet experience there A

[WES]

In fact, according to the Ashcroft Poll, the main reason for voting leave was so that "Laws affecting the UK should be made in the UK". That suggests a fairly firm grasp on sovereignty to me.

Also people have indicated that they would be prepared to take a financial hit in the short term as a price to pay for independence.

Does that grasp extend to recognising that the ECJ only has certain jurisdictions (as an example they have virtually no impact on laws related to crime) and therefore only some of our laws are impacted by the EU? Do they also recognise that if you looked at the EU laws which do impact us you would probably find that the overwhelming majority are laws that we would have passed anyway?

Or do they reduce a relatively complex debate down to a simple soundbite like 'we want control of our laws' that morons like Farage continually peddle?

[Ash]

Does that grasp extend to recognising that the ECJ only has certain jurisdictions (as an example they have virtually no impact on laws related to crime) and therefore only some of our laws are impacted by the EU? Do they also recognise that if you looked at the EU laws which do impact us you would probably find that the overwhelming majority are laws that we would have passed anyway?

Or do they reduce a relatively complex debate down to a simple soundbite like 'we want control of our laws' that morons like Farage continually peddle?

All of politics is eventually reduced to a soundbite, WES. As we speak, we can feel the hand of history on our shoulders.

Arguably only a moron would have dreamed up the GDPR and rammed it down the throats of not only every business in the EU, but every business on the world that wants to trade with the EU. They call it 'harmonisation'. I call it 'Empire'.

[WES]

All of politics is eventually reduced to a soundbite, WES. As we speak, we can feel the hand of history on our shoulders.

Arguably only a moron would have dreamed up the GDPR and rammed it down the throats of not only every business in the EU, but every business on the world that wants to trade with the EU. They call it 'harmonisation'. I call it 'Empire'.

Nicely sidestepped, Ash

But the point remains - and there may be no way around it - that the public took a decision which was significantly impacted by superficial soundbites that are filled with inaccuracies and misrepresentations.

I find this offensive.

[Ash]

Nicely sidestepped, Ash

But the point remains - and there may be no way around it - that the public took a decision which was significantly impacted by superficial soundbites that are filled with inaccuracies and misrepresentations.

I find this offensive.

Actually I thought the example of the GDPR was quite apposite. Because it is impossible to comply with (given a strict interpretation) it makes most companies law-breakers, hence is a bad law. The EU demands it of not only its own subjects, but of countries outside the EU too.

Your argument boils down to the same one being batted around for nearly four years now, which is that Leavers are stoopid and should not be allowed to vote. I am sick to death of it and have no wish to go round and round in circles for ever. It could equally be said, should one wish to do so, that many Remainers voted the way they did for reasons just as shallow and simplified as those Leavers are accused of.

[WES]

Actually I thought the example of the GDPR was quite apposite. Because it is impossible to comply with (given a strict interpretation) it makes most companies law-breakers, hence is a bad law. The EU demands it of not only its own subjects, but of countries outside the EU too.

Your argument boils down to the same one being batted around for nearly four years now, which is that Leavers are stoopid and should not be allowed to vote. I am sick to death of it and have no wish to go round and round in circles for ever. It could equally be said, should one wish to do so, that many Remainers voted the way they did for reasons just as shallow and simplified as those Leavers are accused of.

Now you're making assumptions that are inaccurate - I am no strong Remainer by any stretch, I'm pretty firmly on the fence, I just want us to get on with it. And my allegation is leveled equally at both sides.

As absurdly pessimistic economic forecasts were to Remain, so Farage and his moronic soundbites were to Leave. I found them both equally offensive.

[Monty92]

Now you're making assumptions that are inaccurate - I am no strong Remainer by any stretch, I'm pretty firmly on the fence, I just want us to get on with it. And my allegation is leveled equally at both sides.

As absurdly pessimistic economic forecasts were to Remain, so Farage and his moronic soundbites were to Leave. I found them both equally offensive.

Farage would argue that May's entire approach to the negotiations - and Parliament agitating to sabotage them - made it impossible to get something close to his favoured version of Brexit. And it's hard to argue that he's entirely wrong.

Can we really say things wouldn't have looked a lot different had a different PM with a larger majority picked up the baton after Cameron?