I withhold judgement until WES has given his intelligent and insightful analysis of

[Peter]

Your logic baffles me, Peter. You have gone from 'Partey is more technical in possession than Rice' to 'Rice is therefore not technically skilled enough to pass the ball through midfield and as a result Arteta has changed our style of play'.

This, I'm afraid Peter, is a logical leap of epic proportions. We certainly have seen a range and accuracy of passing from Rice that I never saw from Partey. Is Partey more technically skilled on the ball? Maybe, but if so there isn't much in it. And once again, the idea that Arteta would buy a DM not capable of passing the ball through midfield given how he wants us to play is absurd.

I think the biggest reason our style of play is more conservative is because the opposition have been more negative towards us after our performance last season, they have forced it upon us and we now must adjust. No one thought we had any chance of coming close to winning the league at the start of last season, and other teams played accordingly. Now we are back to the 'park the bus days' of the glory Wenger years. We need to adjust and we need our best players to play better.

And it bears repeating, two games ago we were top of the league and of the subsequent two games only one can be considered a poor performance. Writing us off at this point strikes me as rather premature and very negative.

So unlike you, Peter

As already said, I am not writing us off at this point. I said months ago we wouldn't win the league.

It is an observable fact that Rice's qualities are different to Partey's. There is no logical leap to suggest that having a new midfield of different players has changed our style of play. It would be rather odd if it hadn't. You may feel that Rice and Partey are on a similar level in terms of their passing range but I don't. You should also consider Havertz and Xhaka here. Xhaka used to take the ball near his own box, under pressure. Not sure I can recall Havertz doing that at any stage.

You seem to be suggesting that we are more conservative because our opponents are most conservative towards us. I am not sure that even makes sense. It also doesn't explain how we are more conservative. You've dismissed my explanation. What is yours?

[WES]

As already said, I am not writing us off at this point. I said months ago we wouldn't win the league.

It is an observable fact that Rice's qualities are different to Partey's. There is no logical leap to suggest that having a new midfield of different players has changed our style of play. It would be rather odd if it hadn't. You may feel that Rice and Partey are on a similar level in terms of their passing range but I don't. You should also consider Havertz and Xhaka here. Xhaka used to take the ball near his own box, under pressure. Not sure I can recall Havertz doing that at any stage.

You seem to be suggesting that we are more conservative because our opponents are most conservative towards us. I am not sure that even makes sense. It also doesn't explain how we are more conservative. You've dismissed my explanation. What is yours?

You misunderstood my point, we aren't more conservative, our opponents are playing more conservatively against us which makes it harder for us to play.

Other factors: Jesus missed the first part of the season and is not playing at the same level as he did last year; Havertz clearly struggled to adjust and has played at a level below Xhaka although in the long run I think he will be an improvement; Arteta may look at the 3 draws that cost us the league whilst conceding 7 goals and think that as a team we needed to defend better

Perhaps there are other factors but one that you won't find is our 105mil DM signing not being capable of passing the ball through midfield

[Peter]

You misunderstood my point, we aren't more conservative, our opponents are playing more conservatively against us which makes it harder for us to play.

Other factors: Jesus missed the first part of the season and is not playing at the same level as he did last year; Havertz clearly struggled to adjust and has played at a level below Xhaka although in the long run I think he will be an improvement; Arteta may look at the 3 draws that cost us the league whilst conceding 7 goals and think that as a team we needed to defend better

Perhaps there are other factors but one that you won't find is our 105mil DM signing not being capable of pass the ball through midfield

Ah, so it is just the Rice argument you have an issue with? I see

A couple more brief points.... I don't have them to hand but I bet if you find Odegaard's average positions this year and last I bet you will find he is spending more time in deeper positions this season. We are clearly not going to agree on why that is but I will suggest that is why he spends less time supporting Saka in dealing with two defenders. I have said repeatedly that Martinelli is almost always on his own on the opposite flank. My point is this- I don't think teams are doubling up more, I think we are doubling up on the flanks less, or at least less quickly. You are noticing the doubling up more because it is far more effective against only one forward.

Lastly, yes, Arteta felt we needed to defend better and without a shadow of a doubt that would have been a big factor in signing Rice. He is far more athletic than Partey (including actually being fit to play) and is a massive weapon in protecting us from counter attacks.

And you are simplifying the point re Rice and passing. Receiving the ball under pressure facing your own goal near your own box requires a specific skill set and confidence. Plenty of players cant do it, or don't want to. Maybe Rice is developing that part of his game but at present it isn't where Partey's game is. The same applies to passing between the lines. Anyone can hit space, it is easy. Players like Partey can play ground, straight passes to feet that bypass the opponent in central areas. Xhaka couldn't do it well. Most can't. I am not sure I have seen Rice even attempt it. Zinchenko does it. Not always terribly well......

The other aspect we haven't covered is that the role Havertz is playing is not a replica of what Xhaka did last year. This affects how both Rice and Odegaard play.

Then there is the keeper.....

[redgunamo]

See, if your centre-forward scores a goal-a-game, you don't have to worry about all this.

But that wouldn't be any fun, would it

Ah, so it is just the Rice argument you have an issue with? I see

A couple more brief points.... I don't have them to hand but I bet if you find Odegaard's average positions this year and last I bet you will find he is spending more time in deeper positions this season. We are clearly not going to agree on why that is but I will suggest that is why he spends less time supporting Saka in dealing with two defenders. I have said repeatedly that Martinelli is almost always on his own on the opposite flank. My point is this- I don't think teams are doubling up more, I think we are doubling up on the flanks less, or at least less quickly. You are noticing the doubling up more because it is far more effective against only one forward.

Lastly, yes, Arteta felt we needed to defend better and without a shadow of a doubt that would have been a big factor in signing Rice. He is far more athletic than Partey (including actually being fit to play) and is a massive weapon in protecting us from counter attacks.

And you are simplifying the point re Rice and passing. Receiving the ball under pressure facing your own goal near your own box requires a specific skill set and confidence. Plenty of players cant do it, or don't want to. Maybe Rice is developing that part of his game but at present it isn't where Partey's game is. The same applies to passing between the lines. Anyone can hit space, it is easy. Players like Partey can play ground, straight passes to feet that bypass the opponent in central areas. Xhaka couldn't do it well. Most can't. I am not sure I have seen Rice even attempt it. Zinchenko does it. Not always terribly well......

The other aspect we haven't covered is that the role Havertz is playing is not a replica of what Xhaka did last year. This affects how both Rice and Odegaard play.

Then there is the keeper.....

[Peter]

See, if your centre-forward scores a goal-a-game, you don't have to worry about all this.

But that wouldn't be any fun, would it

Well, you have to get the ball to him first.....

[redgunamo]

Yes. The point of modern system football is How To Win Games If You Do Not Happen To Have A Superstar Goalscoring Striker To Do It For You; the system ITSELF becomes your match-winner. All the Gegenpressings, False Nines and fanny-dancings around the penalty area are not bugs, they are features.

Of course, nobody sees this because, most unsportingly, in my view, the best exponent of it always just happens to actually have a superstar goalscoring striker available to him. He's not silly.

Well, you have to get the ball to him first.....

[Peter]

Yes. The point of modern system football is How To Win Games If You Do Not Happen To Have A Superstar Goalscoring Striker To Do It For You; the system ITSELF becomes your match-winner. All the Gegenpressings, False Nines and fanny-dancings around the penalty area are not bugs, they are features.

Of course, nobody sees this because, most unsportingly, in my view, the best exponent of it always just happens to actually have a superstar goalscoring striker available to him. He's not silly.

Yeah, well.... Giroud's don't grow on trees.