From the weekends 'explosions' in New York I noticed something odd in the US media.

[Burney]

But taking the "all muslims are murderers" line is like the "all men are rapists" line - hyperbolic, divisive and unhelpful. If you haven't known and befriended secular muslims then, well, I'm surprised and a little disappoint.

That isn't what I'm saying. My point is that, in order to be an observant Muslim, you have to believe a variety of deeply unpleasant things.
I have of course known what you call 'secular Muslims', but you have to remember that by the terms of that faith and in the eyes of many of their co-religionists, such people are not real Muslims.

[eastgermanautos]

I like this bit:

'He is generally regarded as a moderate voice within Islam'

So a moderate voice within our Muslim communities is comfortable qualifying an elderly man being beaten to death with a theological justification. Which sort of illuminates the rather enormous elephant in the room in this whole Islam/Terrorism debate.

Specifically, to what extent is there a correlation between a general culture of intolerance and violence within our Muslim communities, and the more extreme forms of intolerance and violence that we see with ISIS and Al Qaeda? Or to put it in practical terms, do men and women within our Muslim communities who hold homophobic beliefs, who think that women should cover up and not leave the home without a male relative and who support forced marriages (to use but three examples), in some way contribute to the radicalisation of members of their communities? And if so, isn't true that we will only solve this problem when our Muslim communities understand this relationship and work with us to address it?

That or we could just go down the Guardian route and blame Western imperialism, racism and capitalism until we turn blue in the face.

What about that dude who killed the Muslim college students down in South Carolina? You don't live in places where there's a real threat of mob or vigilante violence. Most of the US outside the northeast and California is danger territory. That's the Troof.

[eastgermanautos]

Well the whole idea of 'moderate Islam' is a total fiction, I'm afraid. It just means muslims who haven't actively killed anyone yet.

It's kind of bullsh!t, dude. You have a moderate conservative leader. So you don't really have a fear that things are gonna get out of hand. Of course, with a guy like Trump, we could have a real Kristallnacht on our hands.

[Sir C]

It's kind of bullsh!t, dude. You have a moderate conservative leader. So you don't really have a fear that things are gonna get out of hand. Of course, with a guy like Trump, we could have a real Kristallnacht on our hands.

I am sure that the innate good sense and sense of proportion of the American people will... oh.

As you were.

[World's End Stella]

but you have to remember that by the terms of that faith and in the eyes of many of their co-religionists, such people are not real Muslims.

Yes, but that isn't really relevant to the argument as to whether or not there is a 'moderate Islam'. Just because the psychopaths of ISIS don't believe there is, doesn't mean there isn't.

[eastgermanautos]

I am sure that the innate good sense and sense of proportion of the American people will... oh.

As you were.

.

[Burney]

Yes, but that isn't really relevant to the argument as to whether or not there is a 'moderate Islam'. Just because the psychopaths of ISIS don't believe there is, doesn't mean there isn't.

ISIS is a symptom of a much larger regressive movement of Islam that has arisen in opposition to precisely the sort of western-influenced 'moderation' you describe, though. And the problem is that the scripture favours the conservatives and not the modernisers. In that sense, the conservatives have a point: theirs is 'real' Islam and 'modern' or to use an oxymoron 'secular Islam' is not.

[World's End Stella]

ISIS is a symptom of a much larger regressive movement of Islam that has arisen in opposition to precisely the sort of western-influenced 'moderation' you describe, though. And the problem is that the scripture favours the conservatives and not the modernisers. In that sense, the conservatives have a point: theirs is 'real' Islam and 'modern' or to use an oxymoron 'secular Islam' is not.

That's true but that can be overcome provided the moderate members of the Muslim communities are vocal enough within their communities and willing to engage with people outside of their communities to solve the problem.

So far, I have under-whelmed in this regard. And watching some of them continually engage in deflection and avoidance in articles like that one in the Guardian is rather galling.

[Burney]

That's true but that can be overcome provided the moderate members of the Muslim communities are vocal enough within their communities and willing to engage with people outside of their communities to solve the problem.

So far, I have under-whelmed in this regard. And watching some of them continually engage in deflection and avoidance in articles like that one in the Guardian is rather galling.

That's because your expectations are based on the premise that what these people actually want is to live in a tolerant, liberal western society based on the principle of equality under the law. They don't. Even the 'moderate' ones believe things about women, gays, unbelievers and apostates that would make your eyes water.
This is the fundamental misunderstanding. Moderate Islam is a western fantasy for the simple reason that Islam isn't moderate.

[World's End Stella]

That's because your expectations are based on the premise that what these people actually want is to live in a tolerant, liberal western society based on the principle of equality under the law. They don't. Even the 'moderate' ones believe things about women, gays, unbelievers and apostates that would make your eyes water.
This is the fundamental misunderstanding. Moderate Islam is a western fantasy for the simple reason that Islam isn't moderate.

That's a generalisation, Burney. And with the passage of time, I think it is a generalisation that will become less and less valid.