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Thread: I always thought the Speaker's role was simply that of a chairman of the

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Herbert Augustus Chapman View Post
    Tell me abaah't it! I bought one of those poxy Henry contraptions,. I had my dick sucked harder by your mum!
    So. You went for Henry and not Hetty, eh?
    “Other clubs never came into my thoughts once I knew Arsenal wanted to sign me.”

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Ash View Post
    So there we have it. You support the EU because you openly despise democracy and wish to be ruled by technocrats and giant capitalist corporations.

    Yet you hang around with yellow vests, boast of decades of selfish nihilism and pretend to be a rebel.

    Why would anyone take you seriously?
    Where did I say I want to be ruled by giant corporations? One of the things I like most about the EU is the fact that they are prepared to break up monopolies and fine companies that transgress.

    The only hope we have of dealing with multi-national tax scams and the abuses of the US tech giants is through the EU.

    Believe it or not, while I'm aware of the EU's many imperfections, I actually think it can be a force for good in this world.

    In the future, in an increasingly globalised world, there will only be 3 rule makers. The Chinks, the Septics and the EU. And only the EU will be prepared to hold the tech giants to account.

    But yes, I would rather be ruled by accountable technocrats that the semi-literate self-serving ****wits that make up much of our political class. Would you rather the country was run by the front bench of either main party or our top civil servants?

    We have a NI sec who doesn't understand how people vote there, a Brexit sec who didn't know a lot of our trade goes through Dover and Dianne Abacus. Give me the CS high flyers any day.

    Though out of interest, if I give my own time and money to help throw a party that tens of thousands then enjoy for free, just how am I being selfish and nihilistic? Surely that would be the dictionary definitions of selfless and creative?

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Ash View Post
    If we don't like our executive we can vote it out. If you want to see how undemocratic the Commission is, see how they have ignored or overturned numerous referendums around Europe when people voted the 'wrong' way. France, Netherlands, Greece and Ireland have all had popular votes overturned or made to vote again until they get it right. Sound familiar?

    Italy wasn't allowed to set its own Keynesian budget after the people had voted for a left-right coalition opposed to austerity policies.
    Well, yes, but that’s because EU countries are part of a larger democracy, one which they signed up to. In the same way that counties in England are part of a larger democracy. My county votes to Remain but we’re leaving, does that mean that Surrey doesn’t have democracy?

    As I said, I understand the point of view - from both sides.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Ash View Post
    If we don't like our executive we can vote it out. If you want to see how undemocratic the Commission is, see how they have ignored or overturned numerous referendums around Europe when people voted the 'wrong' way. France, Netherlands, Greece and Ireland have all had popular votes overturned or made to vote again until they get it right. Sound familiar?

    Italy wasn't allowed to set its own Keynesian budget after the people had voted for a left-right coalition opposed to austerity policies.
    It's not fair to conflate the Eurozone with the EU.

    For all the idiocy of a monetary union without a fiscal union, and the hypocrisy of allowing Fr and Ger to break the budget limit but not Italy, they chose to be in the EZ and have to obey the rules. They can leave if they don't like it. And we all know why they won't.

    That doesn't apply to us as EU but non EZ members.

    Why it's wrong for the EU to make people vote again 'till they get it right, but fine for May to keep asking Parl to do likewise, I've no idea.

    But the point is that on every occassion that EU states voted again, the proposition was supported by their democratically elected national govts, and often the opposition too.

    The trouble stems from the fact that most people don't take Europe seriously enough and will therefore use an EU vote to stick two fingers up to the establishment. {Remember when the Greens won 15% here in the late '80s?}

    So you often had a case of the public rejecting the vote of a way of sending a message o their rulers (much like Brexit was a protest against austerity andimmigration).

    The govt of whichever country would say "Ok, we get it. But look, this deal really is in all our interests. That's why most main parties in most main countries support it. So look, we'll listen to you about the domestic issues that prompted your protest vote but please vote again, cos we don't want to appear the country holding everyone back, do we?"

    I accept it's a horrible look. And I wish it hadn't happened as the biggest argument against the 2nd vote I desire is that it looks like the EU telling us to keep voting 'till we get it right. {A la May.}

    The EU is far from perfect and maybe Brexit and the coming MEP votes might wake them up a bit. But I would still rather be in the club helping reform it than stuck in an economically destructive limbo with no unilateral escape mechanism, ending up a rule taker with no say in their making.

    With the rebate and opt-outs we had the best of both worlds.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by WES View Post
    Well, yes, but that’s because EU countries are part of a larger democracy, one which they signed up to. In the same way that counties in England are part of a larger democracy. My county votes to Remain but we’re leaving, does that mean that Surrey doesn’t have democracy?

    As I said, I understand the point of view - from both sides.
    No, the popular votes that went against the EU were overturned by the executive, not by elected representatives. Your county is not a political entity, but if you mean your constituency then it's a straw man anyway. When unelected commissioners over-rule referendum results that is pretty much as undemocratic as it gets, and no amount of sophistry will change that.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by WES View Post
    Well, yes, but that’s because EU countries are part of a larger democracy, one which they signed up to. In the same way that counties in England are part of a larger democracy. My county votes to Remain but we’re leaving, does that mean that Surrey doesn’t have democracy?

    As I said, I understand the point of view - from both sides.
    It's almost like people completely understand the need to pool sovereignty up to and including the nation state level, but simply can't get their heads around anything beyond that.

    I'll be honest - until the last 2-3 years, I never understood how important national identity was for so many people. {Don't get me wrong, I love being an Englishman abroad, but I'll mock my own nation's failings mercilessly.}

    But I've also studied enough history to know that the EU allowed our nation to punch far above our weight, so I would have thought the more nationalist types would approve. How wrong I was.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult View Post
    Where did I say I want to be ruled by giant corporations? One of the things I like most about the EU is the fact that they are prepared to break up monopolies and fine companies that transgress.
    When you said you were a globalist. One follows the other like night follows day. Globalism is a paradise for predatory capital, seeking the lowest costs anywhere in the world. For workers, this means a race for the bottom, where the person that will do the job for the lowest wage, for the longest hours, and in the worst conditions .... "wins".

    But yes, I would rather be ruled by accountable technocrats that the semi-literate self-serving ****wits that make up much of our political class. Would you rather the country was run by the front bench of either main party or our top civil servants?
    Civil servants, aka the permanent government, cannot be accountable unless you elect them. I'd like to see both parties blown up (not literally) and replaced by parties representing the new divide - globalist technocracy v democratic sovereignty.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult View Post
    It's not fair to conflate the Eurozone with the EU.

    For all the idiocy of a monetary union without a fiscal union, and the hypocrisy of allowing Fr and Ger to break the budget limit but not Italy, they chose to be in the EZ and have to obey the rules. They can leave if they don't like it. And we all know why they won't.

    That doesn't apply to us as EU but non EZ members.

    Why it's wrong for the EU to make people vote again 'till they get it right, but fine for May to keep asking Parl to do likewise, I've no idea.

    But the point is that on every occassion that EU states voted again, the proposition was supported by their democratically elected national govts, and often the opposition too.

    The trouble stems from the fact that most people don't take Europe seriously enough and will therefore use an EU vote to stick two fingers up to the establishment. {Remember when the Greens won 15% here in the late '80s?}

    So you often had a case of the public rejecting the vote of a way of sending a message o their rulers (much like Brexit was a protest against austerity andimmigration).

    The govt of whichever country would say "Ok, we get it. But look, this deal really is in all our interests. That's why most main parties in most main countries support it. So look, we'll listen to you about the domestic issues that prompted your protest vote but please vote again, cos we don't want to appear the country holding everyone back, do we?"

    I accept it's a horrible look. And I wish it hadn't happened as the biggest argument against the 2nd vote I desire is that it looks like the EU telling us to keep voting 'till we get it right. {A la May.}

    The EU is far from perfect and maybe Brexit and the coming MEP votes might wake them up a bit. But I would still rather be in the club helping reform it than stuck in an economically destructive limbo with no unilateral escape mechanism, ending up a rule taker with no say in their making.

    With the rebate and opt-outs we had the best of both worlds.
    Just because some EU members are not in the EZ doesn't make the EZ irrelevant to the EU. It is intrinsic to the trajectory of the project. When a country cannot set its interest rates or float its currency it cannot adapt to the market and will suffer. Therefore the EZ, a core aspect of the EU has failed. You know this, I believe.

    Where did I say it was fine for May to keep taking her bill back? You've put the cart before the horse by saying that a second referendum makes the EU look like May. Other way round, chronologically. The fact that national governments regularly support the EU over the wishes of their own people points to the corruption and failure to represent of the political class as a whole. This will change.

    The ruling elite will never reform unless they are forced.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Ash View Post
    Just because some EU members are not in the EZ doesn't make the EZ irrelevant to the EU. It is intrinsic to the trajectory of the project. When a country cannot set its interest rates or float its currency it cannot adapt to the market and will suffer. Therefore the EZ, a core aspect of the EU has failed. You know this, I believe.

    Where did I say it was fine for May to keep taking her bill back? You've put the cart before the horse by saying that a second referendum makes the EU look like May. Other way round, chronologically. The fact that national governments regularly support the EU over the wishes of their own people points to the corruption and failure to represent of the political class as a whole. This will change.

    The ruling elite will never reform unless they are forced.
    Sadly the demos remains stubbornly bovine.

    What we need is a bloody revolution. What we will get is a few outraged healines in the Daily Mail.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult View Post
    It's almost like people completely understand the need to pool sovereignty up to and including the nation state level, but simply can't get their heads around anything beyond that.

    I'll be honest - until the last 2-3 years, I never understood how important national identity was for so many people. {Don't get me wrong, I love being an Englishman abroad, but I'll mock my own nation's failings mercilessly.}

    But I've also studied enough history to know that the EU allowed our nation to punch far above our weight, so I would have thought the more nationalist types would approve. How wrong I was.
    The further up the sovereignty is pooled, the more remote power is. The nation-state is the best unit of sovereignty currently available imo, and recognising this does not make one a national chauvinist. It is recognising a shared culture, language and geography, but shouldn't consider that superior to other nations.

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