June 2015: Parliament votes for EU referendum

[Ash]

also on your recommendation I now own a Tokai.

That was Herbs, I think, not me. Last time I bought a bass guitar was in the 80s and all I knew was that it had to be a Fender Precision and be made in the USA. I expect things have changed quite a lot since then, but that bass sounded and played brilliantly for decades. :cloud11:

[Peter]

It doesn't mean nothing. It means leaving the EU.

It has also been regularly qualified by the key Leave players, including May herself.

“Brexit does not mean partial membership of the European Union, associate membership of the European Union, or anything that leaves us half-in, half-out. We do not seek to adopt a model already enjoyed by other countries. We do not seek to hold on to bits of membership as we leave.

“The United Kingdom is leaving the European Union."

Theresa May, January 2017

No, it doesn’t mean leaving the EU. It means nothing. It’s a bull**** hashtag that it isn’t even a word and that literally doesn’t mean anything. You may think it represents leaving the EU, leaving the single market, ending freedom of movement etc…… but it doesn’t.

The quote you put below is better. This at least implies that those significant aspects of membership will simply be ended rather than amended. It still doesn’t say it but it does at least imply it. It is better, for example, than ‘leaving means leaving’ which would simply be another way of avoiding the question.

Quite frankly, the ‘it’s obvious’ angle is rather stupid. Nobody has ever witnessed a situation like this before- nothing is obvious, nothing can be taken as read, nothing is implicit. People quite rightly want to know what Brexit is going to look like and our idiot of a Prime Minister has spectacularly failed to address it.

[Pokster]

Can I just check, are you lot just copying and pasting what you all said about 1,2 and 3 months ago?

[Monty92]

No, it doesn’t mean leaving the EU. It means nothing. It’s a bull**** hashtag that it isn’t even a word and that literally doesn’t mean anything. You may think it represents leaving the EU, leaving the single market, ending freedom of movement etc…… but it doesn’t.

The quote you put below is better. This at least implies that those significant aspects of membership will simply be ended rather than amended. It still doesn’t say it but it does at least imply it. It is better, for example, than ‘leaving means leaving’ which would simply be another way of avoiding the question.

Quite frankly, the ‘it’s obvious’ angle is rather stupid. Nobody has ever witnessed a situation like this before- nothing is obvious, nothing can be taken as read, nothing is implicit. People quite rightly want to know what Brexit is going to look like and our idiot of a Prime Minister has spectacularly failed to address it.

Jesus Christ. I thought I was on the autistic spectrum...

I give up.

[Peter]

Jesus Christ. I thought I was on the autistic spectrum...

I give up.

I think you probably should.

[Ash]

Can I just check, are you lot just copying and pasting what you all said about 1,2 and 3 months ago?

No, I re-composed my bits, and added some new content. It does all feel a bit deja-vu though, for the most part.

[Peter]

Why does it not make sense to be an independent country outside of a supranational entity? National sovereignty has been the standard unit of geopolitical organisation for hundreds of years. Self-determination was considered the key element of post-imperial Europe after WW1 and more globally after WW2 when Britain's own empire was disbanded, along with others.

Was the concept of self-rule for Ireland merely the 'rejection of an idea' or was it the rejection of a specific supranational entity - the British Empire? Likewise, the rejection of the EU is not the rejection of an 'idea' of Europe, but an actual powerful political contruct. There was probably far less confusion in the minds of thise who voted to leave than of those who are desperately trying to avoid leaving while making it look as if they are.

As for the concerted campaign by pretty much the entire ruling class to persuade voters that the sky would fall on our heads the moment we voted leave, let alone after we actually left, well, call it what you like. Project Fear is not such a bad description imo.

Just for the avoidance of doubt, Ireland was not part of the British Empire. It was part of the United Kingdom. As such it was denied any right to any degree of self government. There is no parallel whatsoever with that and the EU.

[Peter]

No, I re-composed my bits, and added some new content. It does all feel a bit deja-vu though, for the most part.

That's because you wont tell us what leaving looks like. We are left to leap around in the dark.

[Pat Vegas]

That was Herbs, I think, not me. Last time I bought a bass guitar was in the 80s and all I knew was that it had to be a Fender Precision and be made in the USA. I expect things have changed quite a lot since then, but that bass sounded and played brilliantly for decades. :cloud11:

Herb did recently.
I am sure you mentioned them previously though. like years ago.

[Ash]

Just for the avoidance of doubt, Ireland was not part of the British Empire. It was part of the United Kingdom. As such it was denied any right to any degree of self government. There is no parallel whatsoever with that and the EU.

Nit picking. Straw nits, too. I doubt those who sought to establish what bacame the Irish Free State cared whether they were extricating themselves from the UK or the British Empire. My point is about the concept of sovereignty, rather than trying to draw exact parallels between voluntary and involuntary supra-national constructs.