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Thread: So it seems our chums in the ever-democratic EU are threatening to suspend Poland's

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Right. So you concede that it is undemocratic because it cannot be otherwise and function?

    That isn't a reason why it isn't undemocratic, it is simply a reason for it being so.

    Given which, you'll understand why those of us to whom the principles of democratic government actually matter had no alternative other than to vote Leave?

    Glad we've sorted that out.
    See Peter's post above, it is more or less as democratic as it can be.

    As for leaving, what if it is less democratic than we'd like but ultimately the country still benefits more from being a member? If you were certain that was true would you still vote to leave because of your love of democracy?

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by World's End Stella View Post
    If the context is 'any time some body has to do something they don't want to it's un-democratic' then yes it is.

    I'm always amused when people criticise the EU for not being democratic. Because getting 28 different countries to act as a union and reap the benefits of that union while allowing them to vote on everything and opt out of anything they don't agree with would just be sooooo easy.
    No, it's more than that. Europeans are simply not democratic by nature; the whole concept is simply not in their bones, the way it is for the English.

    For this reason, any organisational structure they come up with is bound, from the start, to be undemocratic. And whatsmore, they do not see a problem with that, whereas many of us do.
    "Plenty of strikers can score goals," he said, gesturing to the famous old stands casting shadows around us.

    "But a lot have found it difficult wearing the number 9 shirt for The Arsenal."

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    The principles of democratic government. What are these, exactly?
    On the most basic level: that those who propose and promulgate our laws are held to account for their actions by the electorate on a regular basis rather than simply being allowed to remain in place in perpetuity.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by eastgermanautos View Post
    Yeah, when so-called democratically elected govt starts enacting measures to curb democracy, you have a problem. #AdolphHitler1933
    That is democracy, as Germans understand it
    "Plenty of strikers can score goals," he said, gesturing to the famous old stands casting shadows around us.

    "But a lot have found it difficult wearing the number 9 shirt for The Arsenal."

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    No, they have said they are considering invoking Article 7 for the first time in their history to suspend Poland's voting rights.
    Why? What is it that Poland are doing or thinking of doing that the EU don't like? And will there be a vote of some kind to decide whether or not to invoke Article 7?

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by World's End Stella View Post
    See Peter's post above, it is more or less as democratic as it can be.

    As for leaving, what if it is less democratic than we'd like but ultimately the country still benefits more from being a member? If you were certain that was true would you still vote to leave because of your love of democracy?
    'As democratic as it can be' isn't good enough, I'm afraid.

    And in answer to your second question: Yes. Absolutely. I really struggle to see how anyone can feel differently.

    A cosy tyranny will always remain a tyranny, but may not remain cosy. Ask the Greeks.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by redgunamo View Post
    No, it's more than that. Europeans are simply not democratic by nature; the whole concept is simply not in their bones, the way it is for the English.

    For this reason, any organisational structure they come up with is bound, from the start, to be undemocratic. And whatsmore, they do not see a problem with that, whereas many of us do.

    It's the Napoleonic code, basically. They see it as a reasonable blueprint for law and government, whereas we see it for what it is: a means devised by a tyrant to control a subject population. That divide has always been at the heart of Britain's issues with the EU.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    'As democratic as it can be' isn't good enough, I'm afraid.

    And in answer to your second question: Yes. Absolutely. I really struggle to see how anyone can feel differently.

    A cosy tyranny will always remain a tyranny, but may not remain cosy. Ask the Greeks.
    Funny, never really seen you as an idealist, Burnley.

    And my answer would be absolutely not. I think we're less democratic than you make us out to be and the EU more than you want to believe. And at the end of the day I want a nice life, I could give a rat's ass about political philosophy which I may or may not be exposed to. And in my lifetime, being part of the EU is far less risky than leaving.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by World's End Stella View Post
    Funny, never really seen you as an idealist, Burnley.

    And my answer would be absolutely not. I think we're less democratic than you make us out to be and the EU more than you want to believe. And at the end of the day I want a nice life, I could give a rat's ass about political philosophy which I may or may not be exposed to. And in my lifetime, being part of the EU is far less risky than leaving.
    Good Lord. A german saying this in 1936 would probably have regretted it by 1945.

    By the way, your hanging preposition is perfectly revolting.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir C View Post
    Good Lord. A german saying this in 1936 would probably have regretted it by 1945.

    By the way, your hanging preposition is perfectly revolting.
    I understand one or two of them still regret it even now.
    "Plenty of strikers can score goals," he said, gesturing to the famous old stands casting shadows around us.

    "But a lot have found it difficult wearing the number 9 shirt for The Arsenal."

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