Labour's attempts to differentiate their position on Brexit and specifically

[World's End Stella]

Well it seems abundantly clear that lots and lots of Remain types voted Labour whilst either wilfully ignoring or simply being wholly ignorant of the party's clearly expressed stance on the EU. Young people in particular seem almost immune to the information that their beloved cuddly old uncle Jeremy has been avowedly anti-EU his entire political life. It just does not seem to compute.

You're missing the point, Burney. Many Remain people voted Labour because they didn't want a hard Brexit and the Tories having a strong majority seemed the most likely way for that to happen.

It wasn't about the Labour manifesto, it was about weakening the Tories so that they had to compromise.

BTW, I don't think anyone committed to a hard or soft or full Brexit. I don't think anyone ever has because no one has ever really attempted to define what it meant. Which is one of the reasons I didn't vote Leave.

[Monty92]

You're missing the point, Burney. Many Remain people voted Labour because they didn't want a hard Brexit and the Tories having a strong majority seemed the most likely way for that to happen.

It wasn't about the Labour manifesto, it was about weakening the Tories so that they had to compromise.

BTW, I don't think anyone committed to a hard or soft or full Brexit. I don't think anyone ever has because no one has ever really attempted to define what it meant. Which is one of the reasons I didn't vote Leave.

Hard Brexit means leaving the EU. Leaving the EU means leaving the single market, customs union and ending freedom of movement.

Soft Brexit means not leaving the EU by not doing any of the above.

Labour campaigned on a manifesto that pledged to leave the single market, customs union and end freedom of movement. Therefore, if as you say, people voted Labour to avoid a hard Brexit, it seems a strange way of doing it. Unless, of course, they had a longer term and more calculated plan in mind.

[World's End Stella]

Hard Brexit means leaving the EU. Leaving the EU means leaving the single market, customs union and ending freedom of movement.

Soft Brexit means not leaving the EU by not doing any of the above.

Labour campaigned on a manifesto that pledged to leave the single market, customs union and end freedom of movement. Therefore, if as you say, people voted Labour to avoid a hard Brexit, it seems a strange way of doing it. Unless, of course, they had a longer term and more calculated plan in mind.

You really think that Brexit negotiations are that binary? You don't think there might be an achievable middle ground between the two things you describe?

Think again.

[Monty92]

You really think that Brexit negotiations are that binary? You don't think there might be an achievable middle ground between the two things you describe?

Think again.

Yes, certainly when it comes to single market membership and freedom of movement, it is that binary.

I of course agree that a middle ground will be reached, but it won't involve remaining in the SM and keeping FoM. Or if it does, we wouldn't have left the EU.

[Peter]

membership of the single market and customs union from the Tories through semantics is absolutely fúcking hilarious.

All the middle class people I know who voted Labour did so because a) they wanted a soft (i.e. 'no') Brexit and b) they felt Labour's policies were more likely to reduce inequality.

And yet,

1) Labour campaigned on a hard brexit manifesto which they are now committed to supporting, unless they are playing a very dangerous long game which would ultimately lose them much of the working class support they managed to claw back at the election.
2) Labour opposed the means testing of the winter fuel allowance, meaning that wealthy pensioners continue receiving money they have no need for
3) Labour opposed the Tory's social care policy which would have placed the burden of care costs on the very same elderly home owners who Labour supporters have always maintained have had it too good for too long at the expense of the younger generation
2) Labour proposed an abolition of tuition fees that has been shown would overwhelmingly negatively impact the poor and benefit the middle class

When are these middle class Labour voters gonna realise they voted for a party whose core policies they inherently disagree with?

New hobby, Sir?

1) Labour campaigned in support of the referendum outcome but with the insistence that parliament alone would make the final decision. This is NOT a semantic distinction from May's position.
2) Labour opposed the means testing because the process costs more to run that it could ever hope to save by denying the fuel allowance to some individuals. This is classic Tory policy- it looks responsible, it looks like it saves money, but it achieves nothing.
3) The Tory's social care policy was a disaster from start to finish, something they even recognise themselves. Seeing it as an attack on wealthy pensioners completely misses the point.
4) Possibly true, depending on how it is implemented. If accompanied by a return to capped numbers then yes, it constitutes a middle class subsidy just like the good old days. The sensible policy would be to return to the lower tuition fee. I would say they got that one wrong but then it won a lot of votes from young people.

[Peter]

[QUOTE=Monty92;4166468]Hard Brexit means leaving the EU. Leaving the EU means leaving the single market, customs union and ending freedom of movement.

Soft Brexit means not leaving the EU by not doing any of the above.



How can not leaving the EU be considered to be any kind of exit??

[World's End Stella]

[QUOTE=Peter;4166530]

How can not leaving the EU be considered to be any kind of exit??

Glad it wasn't just me that noticed that.

Monty really should stick to not understanding football.

[Monty92]

[QUOTE=World's End Stella;4166723]

Glad it wasn't just me that noticed that.

Monty really should stick to not understanding football.

You're both being silly. The scenario I was referring to was one in which we nominally left the EU but retained all of the substantive ties that come with being a member.

[World's End Stella]

[QUOTE=Monty92;4166743]

You're both being silly. The scenario I was referring to was one in which we nominally left the EU but retained all of the substantive ties that come with being a member.

No, you simply do not understand the difference between hard Brexit and soft Brexit. Mostly because you don't understand what soft Brexit is, I'm afraid.

[Peter]

[QUOTE=Monty92;4166743]

You're both being silly. The scenario I was referring to was one in which we nominally left the EU but retained all of the substantive ties that come with being a member.

So, leave and remain. That seems fair, pretty much everyone voted for at least half of that.