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Thread: Tear down every mosque in the uk

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Right. If you think the Republic of Ireland is desperate to get its paws on Northern Ireland, you're wrong. Equally, NI leaving the union by democratic self-determination has never been a problem as far as the UK is concerned. The problem lay in it being dragged out by violence - something the British rightly refused to countenance.

    The biggest mistake anyone can make in attempting to understand NI is to think that Britain and Ireland are fighting over it. They're not. Both sides are just dealing with it as an unwished-for historical legacy for which they feel responsibility and whose descent into chaos they are both desperate to avoid.
    Goodness. We lived through a mirage in the sixties through to the eighties then. Haugh-haugh-haughey.

    Let me get this straight. You are saying that if the scenario I envisage happens the Republic will refuse to allow Ulster to join it?

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Mo Britain less Europe View Post
    Goodness. We lived through a mirage in the sixties through to the eighties then. Haugh-haugh-haughey.

    Let me get this straight. You are saying that if the scenario I envisage happens the Republic will refuse to allow Ulster to join it?
    I suspect it will mostly depend on whether the officials in charge are devoted fly fishermen, or not.
    "Plenty of strikers can score goals," he said, gesturing to the famous old stands casting shadows around us.

    "But a lot have found it difficult wearing the number 9 shirt for The Arsenal."

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Mo Britain less Europe View Post
    Goodness. We lived through a mirage in the sixties through to the eighties then. Haugh-haugh-haughey.

    Let me get this straight. You are saying that if the scenario I envisage happens the Republic will refuse to allow Ulster to join it?
    Oh, the reflexive anti-Brit thing still obtained in the early days - particularly among Fianna Fail - but that is sort of inherent to their history as the anti-treaty party. However, as time wore on, it became increasingly clear to the Irish government that this was not something they could afford to fvck about with. That was made particularly clear after the Dublin bombings in 72 and 73, which brought it home just what the NI problem breaking out would actually mean for the Republic. After that, they pulled themselves together.

    As to Ireland accepting NI as part of it, that would depend entirely on what sort of state NI was in at the time. If it were peaceful and the transition could be managed peacefully, then yes. If it were on fire, no.

    However, that's beside the point. The point is that NI was only ever a fudge to prevent large-scale civil war and has never been a proposition designed for perpetuity. Britain doesn't want it, but is obliged to keep it, while Ireland feels historically obliged to seem to want it, but has severe doubts on a practical level. Ultimately, everyone is just trying to manage it to a point where a long-term solution can be found. If that is unification with Ireland or it existing as a quasi-independent state guaranteed by both Britain and Ireland then so be it. The mistake is to imagine that this is a land grab by either side. It simply isn't.

  4. #34
    The population divides roughly 50/50 between wanting two different unions. That is still a recipe for trouble. The republicans stopped the bombings because they gained on the political arena and firmly believe - Gerry Adams reminded us yesterday - that history is on their side. But if that doesn't happen they will be pissed off.

    If it does happen then you can understand that the other half will feel Carsonesque about joining a poorer more limited country which still hangs on to vestiges of old-style Papism.

    So don't count your chickens that Ulster will be peaceful forever and aye.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Mo Britain less Europe View Post
    The population divides roughly 50/50 between wanting two different unions. That is still a recipe for trouble. The republicans stopped the bombings because they gained on the political arena and firmly believe - Gerry Adams reminded us yesterday - that history is on their side. But if that doesn't happen they will be pissed off.

    If it does happen then you can understand that the other half will feel Carsonesque about joining a poorer more limited country which still hangs on to vestiges of old-style Papism.

    So don't count your chickens that Ulster will be peaceful forever and aye.
    It's a vastly different political landscape now, though.

    Ireland is a much less priest-ridden and more modern society now than it was even 20 years ago - the sex abuse scandals saw to that. Equally, you now have the generation that drove the troubles dying out and a younger generation who have grown up without violence and have no desire for it. Plus, of course, the manifest injustices that led to the original outbreak of the troubles no longer exist, so the catalyst for violence isn't really there. Also, the sort of blood and soil nationalist and unionist outlooks that bred Adams and Paisley don't really exist in the same way they used to.

    Only a fool or someone with no grasp of history would ever think NI is permanently at peace. However, I am more sanguine about the prospect of it now than I've ever been and certainly can't see the means or motive existing for a serious return to large-scale violence in the short to medium term.

  6. #36
    Yes, their enlightened attitude on abortion does them credit too.

    This is an Indian summer. Enjoy it, it won't last forever.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Mo Britain less Europe View Post
    Yes, their enlightened attitude on abortion does them credit too.

    This is an Indian summer. Enjoy it, it won't last forever.
    I don't remember claiming to be an advocate for the Irish state.

    I'm merely stating facts as I perceive them. When I was growing up and holidaying with my family in Ireland, contraception, pornography, homosexuality and for some reason a whole variety of British sweets were all illegal, priests and nuns were everywhere, the church effectively ran large parts of education and welfare provision and the telly used to show masses.

    Today, they can barely get enough seminarians to fill Maynooth, gay marriage is legal and - god help us - they've given us Mrs Brown's Boys. Yes, abortion is a stumbling block, but to suggest that Ireland is the same priest-ridden sh1thole it was in the 70s is simply to prefer one's prejudices to reality.

    Equally, as regards NI, I'm making no guarantees, but I simply don't see the catalyst or the will for a return to violence there. Your assessment - much like your assessment of the Republic - seems to me to be based on a wholly outdated idea of the situation and the attitudes there.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    I don't remember claiming to be an advocate for the Irish state.

    I'm merely stating facts as I perceive them. When I was growing up and holidaying with my family in Ireland, contraception, pornography, homosexuality and for some reason a whole variety of British sweets were all illegal, priests and nuns were everywhere, the church effectively ran large parts of education and welfare provision and the telly used to show masses.

    Today, they can barely get enough seminarians to fill Maynooth, gay marriage is legal and - god help us - they've given us Mrs Brown's Boys. Yes, abortion is a stumbling block, but to suggest that Ireland is the same priest-ridden sh1thole it was in the 70s is simply to prefer one's prejudices to reality.

    Equally, as regards NI, I'm making no guarantees, but I simply don't see the catalyst or the will for a return to violence there. Your assessment - much like your assessment of the Republic - seems to me to be based on a wholly outdated idea of the situation and the attitudes there.
    Bearing in mind the political split continues to be almost exclusively a religious one I believe the attitudes there are more outdated than you credit them.

    The catalyst (if it ever happens and I hope it doesn't) will be the calls for a referendum to leave the Union.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    I don't remember claiming to be an advocate for the Irish state.

    I'm merely stating facts as I perceive them. When I was growing up and holidaying with my family in Ireland, contraception, pornography, homosexuality and for some reason a whole variety of British sweets were all illegal, priests and nuns were everywhere, the church effectively ran large parts of education and welfare provision and the telly used to show masses.

    Today, they can barely get enough seminarians to fill Maynooth, gay marriage is legal and - god help us - they've given us Mrs Brown's Boys. Yes, abortion is a stumbling block, but to suggest that Ireland is the same priest-ridden sh1thole it was in the 70s is simply to prefer one's prejudices to reality.

    Equally, as regards NI, I'm making no guarantees, but I simply don't see the catalyst or the will for a return to violence there. Your assessment - much like your assessment of the Republic - seems to me to be based on a wholly outdated idea of the situation and the attitudes there.
    Focusing on the important issue - which sweets were banned? Don't remember that but then part of the reason for going to Ireland* was to pick up a supply of Golden Crisp and Silvermints so probably didn't notice any other sweets/chocolates that were missing



    *as if I had a choice

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Luis Anaconda View Post
    Focusing on the important issue - which sweets were banned? Don't remember that but then part of the reason for going to Ireland* was to pick up a supply of Golden Crisp and Silvermints so probably didn't notice any other sweets/chocolates that were missing



    *as if I had a choice
    Curly Wurlys.

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