I will never get my head around the 2nd amendment and Americans utter refusal

[Peter]

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick on this one, Peter. They held an election and ran it efficiently and honestly and the winner was clear.

The flaw was the fact that one of the candidates was so reprehensible that he couldn't accept the result. Whether this is a flaw in American democracy or democracy generally is a matter for debate.

No, I didn't mean that one. I meant the Bush election with the whole '**** knows who won Florida' business.

Their elections are a mess.

[Peter]

Stop being silly, Peter

Who is to judge right and wrong if not the voters?

[WES]

Who is to judge right and wrong if not the voters?

Well it isn't that simple though, is it? Take the example of American policy towards Cuba. The large Cuban American population in Florida makes that vote very important if you want to win the state, and there are many who think you need Florida to win the Presidency. History shows this is largely true. So no sensible Presidential candidate pushes back on the absurd American foreign policy towards Cuba which has negatively affected millions of innocent people through embargos, political isolation etc.

It's wrong, but it gets you elected. Because of the flaw in democracy, or at least American democracy

[redgunamo]

Oh, you don't need to tell ME; Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit and a' that.

But we don't even claim to be free. Well, not those of us who are sensible, anyway. We see freedom as being subject to a clear set of laws and restrictions and having the ability to choose someone else to oversee them once every five years. And some obscure legal rights that are frequently trampled on....

We don't bang on about freedom. It is too vague to carry any meaning. Freedom from what? For whom?

[redgunamo]

Stay tuned. It'll all come out in the wash!

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick on this one, Peter. They held an election and ran it efficiently and honestly and the winner was clear.

The flaw was the fact that one of the candidates was so reprehensible that he couldn't accept the result. Whether this is a flaw in American democracy or democracy generally is a matter for debate.

[Peter]

Well it isn't that simple though, is it? Take the example of American policy towards Cuba. The large Cuban American population in Florida makes that vote very important if you want to win the state, and there are many who think you need Florida to win the Presidency. History shows this is largely true. So no sensible Presidential candidate pushes back on the absurd American foreign policy towards Cuba which has negatively affected millions of innocent people through embargos, political isolation etc.

It's wrong, but it gets you elected. Because of the flaw in democracy, or at least American democracy

Right- so to win Florida you need to appeal to the voters in Florida.

And on the subject of simplicity, do you honestly believe that US policy to Cuba is a de facto matter of right and wrong? A simple casualty of electoral 'math' and not in any way related to the american obsession with communism.

Obviously I was being flippant with my original point but there is a serious point in there. With Brexit and Trump we saw how reluctant people are to accept a democratic defeat.

[Peter]

Oh, you don't need to tell ME; Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit and a' that.

Bloody Germans

[redgunamo]

With regards to their republic, President Trump is probably their best hope as they've been ****ing it up and selling it off for ages.

Of course, in the Old World, we're all too well aware these things don't last; things fall apart and you just have to dust yourselves down and go again. Happens all the time. My in-laws are fond of pointing out, We survived the Romans, the Vikings and Napoleon and the Nazis and the Red Peril and the Allies and we're STILL here, drinking our beer! Or words to that effect. Point is, people in Europe have been around the circle of history so many times that they do not panic every time a Russian sneezes or a Chinaman blows his nose (unlike our Yankee friends).

The Americans, on the other hand, will apparently be lucky to survive President Biden.
The US has never really been through any of this sort of thing so naturally they get rather excited about their own impending societal collapse. It's watching all those apocalypse movies and zombies on television that does it, I suppose. But we have seen the end of the world loads of times so it's old stuff, boring.

Right- so to win Florida you need to appeal to the voters in Florida.

And on the subject of simplicity, do you honestly believe that US policy to Cuba is a de facto matter of right and wrong? A simple casualty of electoral 'math' and not in any way related to the american obsession with communism.

Obviously I was being flippant with my original point but there is a serious point in there. With Brexit and Trump we saw how reluctant people are to accept a democratic defeat.

[Arsenal Alcoholic Review]

Nah I don’t buy this one at all. If I was in the States I’d be like yer man from tremors with my arsenal of weaponry. Yeah, yeah I get it you could show me stats saying how many fewer would die if guns were illegal. I get that I do. But balls to it I’d be voting to keep my 50 odd guns. Not having a gun would be like a bloke choosing to cut off his cock. Now imagine instead of one cock you have 50? See what I mean? We’re keeping our cocks.

[Peter]

With regards to their republic, President Trump is probably their best hope as they've been ****ing it up and selling it off for ages.

Of course, in the Old World, we're all too well aware these things don't last; things fall apart and you just have to dust yourselves down and go again. Happens all the time. My in-laws are fond of pointing out, We survived the Romans, the Vikings and Napoleon and the Nazis and the Red Peril and the Allies and we're STILL here, drinking our beer! Or words to that effect. Point is, people in Europe have been around the circle of history so many times that they do not panic every time a Russian sneezes or a Chinaman blows his nose (unlike our Yankee friends).

The Americans, on the other hand, will apparently be lucky to survive President Biden.
The US has never really been through any of this sort of thing so naturally they get rather excited about their own impending societal collapse. It's watching all those apocalypse movies and zombies on television that does it, I suppose. But we have seen the end of the world loads of times so it's old stuff, boring.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating- you are a a bit of an odd chap!

I guess the American equivalent of the 'old hat' response you refer to is the prevalence of guns. It might be slightly odd to us that everyone is walking round packing but it is just natural to them. And mass shootings, well.... tragic, but to some extent unavoidable.

Either you're in the arms business or you're not.