How to spin an election result.

[WES]

No, I'm sorry, but there is no democratic or moral justification for Remain getting another go under any circumstances. To allow that would be to validate Remainers' persistent refusal over the last three years to simply accept the fúcking result and go from there.
And make no mistake: it is that which has been the really damaging thing that has made compromise impossible. It is impossible to compromise in good faith with someone who fundamentally wishes not to achieve a mutually-acceptable outcome, but to screw you and take everything. Without an honest commitment that we must leave, there can be no reconciliation. Dangling the carrot of another referendum whereby they might get their way only exacerbates the problem. And, were they to win such a referendum, do you seriously believe that would bring us all back together? You'd have to be mental to believe that.

There is no moral or democratic justification but there is a practical one imo. The fundamental issue is that parliament does not believe that the referendum was a vote for a no deal exit and they are terrified that if they go along with one and the economy goes into the toilet they will lose their seats in the next GE. That is why we can't progress. My referendum proposal would resolve that.

Would it bring us together? Of course not, only time and a lot of it will do that. But it will allow us to take the next step.

[Ash]

There is no moral or democratic justification but there is a practical one imo. The fundamental issue is that parliament does not believe that the referendum was a vote for a no deal exit and they are terrified that if they go along with one and the economy goes into the toilet they will lose their seats in the next GE. That is why we can't progress. My referendum proposal would resolve that.

Would it bring us together? Of course not, only time and a lot of it will do that. But it will allow us to take the next step.

The thing often overlooking about this parliament is that they absolutely do not accurately represent the people on the main thing that the people currently care about. Leavers voted Tory and Labour in the last election under good faith that they would implement the referendum result as promised in the manifestos. That faith has been shown to be misplaced. If for the sake of argument we assume a roughly even split then around half of MPs should support leave, but perhaps only a quarter do. If this parliament cannot implement the decision we need to elect a new one, with the chance to vote for MPs who reflect the views of voters, not the elites.

[WES]

The thing often overlooking about this parliament is that they absolutely do not accurately represent the people on the main thing that the people currently care about. Leavers voted Tory and Labour in the last election under good faith that they would implement the referendum result as promised in the manifestos. That faith has been shown to be misplaced. If for the sake of argument we assume a roughly even split then around half of MPs should support leave, but perhaps only a quarter do. If this parliament cannot implement the decision we need to elect a new one, with the chance to vote for MPs who reflect the views of voters, not the elites.

Yes, I agree completely, however I can't accept a GE with even the smallest possibility of Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbott getting into power. And even if I did, the Conservatives are never going to call one.

So going back to being practical, you have to ask yourself what are the conditions under which this parliament will exit the EU? One is by agreeing a deal, something which I think is impossible. Secondly, via a referendum which makes it absolutely clear that the public prefer no deal to Remain.

It's the only option I can see.

[Ash]

Yes, I agree completely, however I can't accept a GE with even the smallest possibility of Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbott getting into power. And even if I did, the Conservatives are never going to call one.

So going back to being practical, you have to ask yourself what are the conditions under which this parliament will exit the EU? One is by agreeing a deal, something which I think is impossible. Secondly, via a referendum which makes it absolutely clear that the public prefer no deal to Remain.

It's the only option I can see.

There may be a GE scenario where a no-dealer is elected as Tory leader, who then faces a no-confidence vote from Tory remainer MPs who are then backed by Labour.

With May gone surely her discredited WA must surely go with her, while and WTO v Remain is better than WA v Remain, however much you try to sugar-coat it with words like 'confirmatory', a second referendum with Remain on the ticket does not respect the first result.

Anyway, I think George Galloway was right when he said that Labour was finished. I don't have the exact quote but basically the coalition between metropolitan middle class remainers and traditional working class leavers is over. The party machinery is dominated by the former, who will likely go hard-remain, and Labour won't be getting their traditional (leave) voters back.

[Burney]

There may be a GE scenario where a no-dealer is elected as Tory leader, who then faces a no-confidence vote from Tory remainer MPs who are then backed by Labour.

With May gone surely her discredited WA must surely go with her, while and WTO v Remain is better than WA v Remain, however much you try to sugar-coat it with words like 'confirmatory', a second referendum with Remain on the ticket does not respect the first result.

Anyway, I think George Galloway was right when he said that Labour was finished. I don't have the exact quote but basically the coalition between metropolitan middle class remainers and traditional working class leavers is over. The party machinery is dominated by the former, who will likely go hard-remain, and Labour won't be getting their traditional (leave) voters back.

Labour's predicament is if anything worse than that of the tories. A strong tory leader could guarantee the withdrawal of the whip from any Remain rebels, meaning that forcing a GE would almost certainly mean them losing their seats, campaign on the basis of getting out deal-or-no-deal and win back Brexit Party voters. By contrast, whichever way Labour go, they lose half their vote.

A GE forced by a no-confidence vote is very far from being a guarantee of a Corbyn government.

[WES]

Labour's predicament is if anything worse than that of the tories. A strong tory leader could guarantee the withdrawal of the whip from any Remain rebels, meaning that forcing a GE would almost certainly mean them losing their seats, campaign on the basis of getting out deal-or-no-deal and win back Brexit Party voters. By contrast, whichever way Labour go, they lose half their vote.

A GE forced by a no-confidence vote is very far from being a guarantee of a Corbyn government.

It doesn't have to be a guarantee of a Corbyn government to scare me, even a small chance is too much. And despite your scenario, I still can't see a GE anytime soon.

And no matter how strong the Tory leader, I think the MPs will be terrified of No Deal blowing up the economy - even in the short term - and them being held accountable. Unless of course there was a referendum that made it clear that this was the desire of the people.

That is not the case now and only a referendum could clear it up outside of a GE.

[AFC East]

It doesn't have to be a guarantee of a Corbyn government to scare me, even a small chance is too much. And despite your scenario, I still can't see a GE anytime soon.

And no matter how strong the Tory leader, I think the MPs will be terrified of No Deal blowing up the economy - even in the short term - and them being held accountable. Unless of course there was a referendum that made it clear that this was the desire of the people.

That is not the case now and only a referendum could clear it up outside of a GE.

A pretty fair summary. The view that there is no moral or democratic basis for another referendum is frankly irrelevant. Politics has never worked within those constraints.

[Ash]

A pretty fair summary. The view that there is no moral or democratic basis for another referendum is frankly irrelevant. Politics has never worked within those constraints.

Well, perhaps not in EU politics, where referenda are regularly re-run until the required conclusion is reached, and which is why many voted Leave in the first place. Overthrowing the biggest vote for anything in British history is a bit different. It would set a precedent for throwing out the results of any vote - election or referendum that the establishment didn't like. There's your moral and democratic basis right there.

[AFC East]

Well, perhaps not in EU politics, where referenda are regularly re-run until the required conclusion is reached, and which is why many voted Leave in the first place. Overthrowing the biggest vote for anything in British history is a bit different. It would set a precedent for throwing out the results of any vote - election or referendum that the establishment didn't like. There's your moral and democratic basis right there.

I didn’t say there wasn’t a moral basis. Just that it’s irrelevant. Running another referendum wouldn’t be unconstitutional, rerunning an election would be.

[WES]

Well, perhaps not in EU politics, where referenda are regularly re-run until the required conclusion is reached, and which is why many voted Leave in the first place. Overthrowing the biggest vote for anything in British history is a bit different. It would set a precedent for throwing out the results of any vote - election or referendum that the establishment didn't like. There's your moral and democratic basis right there.

You’re certain that 17.4mil people voted to leave even with no deal? Really? That’s funny because I recall no mention of it in the campaign I watched.

I’m not so certain, not sure how anyone could be.