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Thread: I always thought the Speaker's role was simply that of a chairman of the

  1. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by WES View Post
    Your version of democracy seems to involve only British people voting on something. Of course we have less democratic control over how the EU votes, all countries do, it would have been impossible to form the EU and receive the benefits of it (which England has in spades) without sacrificing that level of democracy.

    But to describe the EU as anti-democratic is simply wrong. It is democracy at a different level enforced in a different way for the benefit of the participants.
    That is because - as a has patiently explained - the nation state is to date by far the most effective mechanism mankind has yet discovered for delivering actual democratic accountability. Democracy relies upon the consent of the governed. In the nation state that exists because people largely believe wholeheartedly in and feel part of the larger entity that is the nation.
    In the case of European 'democracy', that is demonstrably not the case. Barring a minority of EU fanatics, the EU's 'consent' relies on a fantasy - the fantasy that we are all one big European family that is happy to forego national identities and local concerns for the sake of the larger European entity. That is clearly nonsense - all the member nations continue to place their own interests first - and thus any democratic entity predicated on it is nothing of the sort.
    And while we're at it, let's look at the nature of the European Parliament. There are 73 UK MEPs in the European Parliament. That means that each one on average represents more than 904,000 people. The average MP in this country represents just over a tenth of that number. So in purely mathematical terms, the UK's democracy is nearly ten times as representative as the EU's most democratic - and least powerful - body.
    So yes, it is democracy 'on a different level'. It is on a much lower and vastly less democratic level.

  2. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by WES View Post
    Oh I have no problem with people saying that the EU's version of democracy isn't good enough and we want to leave on that basis regardless of the impact on the country (in fact, that is the only Leave view that I have any respect for), but to refer to the EU as not being democratic is incorrect and the suggestion that a non-elected executive (it is elected) can pass legislation (it can't) without any democratic process (there is one) is simply incorrect.

    People should be accurate even in matters emotional imo.
    Spot on.

    You're still wrong about Rambo, though. Speaking of which, if we leave the EU what happens to the Bosman ruling?

  3. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    That is because - as a has patiently explained - the nation state is to date by far the most effective mechanism mankind has yet discovered for delivering actual democratic accountability. Democracy relies upon the consent of the governed. In the nation state that exists because people largely believe wholeheartedly in and feel part of the larger entity that is the nation.
    In the case of European 'democracy', that is demonstrably not the case. Barring a minority of EU fanatics, the EU's 'consent' relies on a fantasy - the fantasy that we are all one big European family that is happy to forego national identities and local concerns for the sake of the larger European entity. That is clearly nonsense - all the member nations continue to place their own interests first - and thus any democratic entity predicated on it is nothing of the sort.
    And while we're at it, let's look at the nature of the European Parliament. There are 73 UK MEPs in the European Parliament. That means that each one on average represents more than 904,000 people. The average MP in this country represents just over a tenth of that number. So in purely mathematical terms, the UK's democracy is nearly ten times as representative as the EU's most democratic - and least powerful - body.
    So yes, it is democracy 'on a different level'. It is on a much lower and vastly less democratic level.
    You see, we agree on dim sum and this.

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