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Thread: I find myself in the odd position this morning of supporting the Allans.

  1. #1

    I find myself in the odd position this morning of supporting the Allans.

    These ones in Birmingham who are going mental about the pro-gay propaganda being fed to their kids are in the right...albeit for all the wrong reasons.

    I strongly believe it is the prerogative of parents to inculcate in their children certain cultural and religious belief, behaviours and ideas - assuming those behaviours do not transgress the law, of course. I equally strongly believe it is not the place of the state to dictate what our children ought to think about social issues.

    Thus, while I find the reason why these Allans object to their kids being taught bumderology, I fully support the principle behind their objections.

    Of course, if they were Christians objecting, they would be routinely mocked and ignored, but that's a separate issue.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    These ones in Birmingham who are going mental about the pro-gay propaganda being fed to their kids are in the right...albeit for all the wrong reasons.

    I strongly believe it is the prerogative of parents to inculcate in their children certain cultural and religious belief, behaviours and ideas - assuming those behaviours do not transgress the law, of course. I equally strongly believe it is not the place of the state to dictate what our children ought to think about social issues.

    Thus, while I find the reason why these Allans object to their kids being taught bumderology, I fully support the principle behind their objections.

    Of course, if they were Christians objecting, they would be routinely mocked and ignored, but that's a separate issue.
    Hmmmmmmmmmm. Presumably you also object to teaching kids about contraception?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Monty92 View Post
    Hmmmmmmmmmm. Presumably you also object to teaching kids about contraception?
    No. You can teach children about contraception without telling them it is a good thing or how they should feel about it. The problem here is that the agenda - while perhaps well-meaning - has no place in the classroom. It is the attempt to indoctrinate that I find wholly repulsive because there is nothing to prevent the state from doing the same with other - less benign - beliefs.

    For instance, I take it you would object - as do I - to much of the pro-Islam teaching of comparative religion that is going on in our schools. In doing so, you would be standing on the same principle as these Allan parents - that the wish of the state to encourage a given mode of thought should not be allowed to go unchecked regardless of the parents' wishes.

    Ultimately, I do not believe it is the place of the state to dictate to children what their beliefs should be.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    No. You can teach children about contraception without telling them it is a good thing or how they should feel about it. The problem here is that the agenda - while perhaps well-meaning - has no place in the classroom. It is the attempt to indoctrinate that I find wholly repulsive because there is nothing to prevent the state from doing the same with other - less benign - beliefs.

    For instance, I take it you would object - as do I - to much of the pro-Islam teaching of comparative religion that is going on in our schools. In doing so, you would be standing on the same principle as these Allan parents - that the wish of the state to encourage a given mode of thought should not be allowed to go unchecked regardless of the parents' wishes.

    Ultimately, I do not believe it is the place of the state to dictate to children what their beliefs should be.
    Do the Allan schools teach their pupils about christianity, judaism, etc and the right to be atheist or agnostic?

    Also, with regards sex education - do schools teach the ins and outs, so to speak, of heemasexual practices?
    “Other clubs never came into my thoughts once I knew Arsenal wanted to sign me.”

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by IUFG View Post
    Do the Allan schools teach their pupils about christianity, judaism, etc and the right to be atheist or agnostic?

    Also, with regards sex education - do schools teach the ins and outs, so to speak, of heemasexual practices?
    Of course not. Apostasy is punishable by death in Sharia.

    As for the heemasexual practices, I don't know and I'm unsure what the value of such lessons would be. For millennia, our puddle-jumping pals have not been taught anything about how to have sex and yet they've managed to figure it out all on their own - presumably through trial and error.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    No. You can teach children about contraception without telling them it is a good thing or how they should feel about it. The problem here is that the agenda - while perhaps well-meaning - has no place in the classroom. It is the attempt to indoctrinate that I find wholly repulsive because there is nothing to prevent the state from doing the same with other - less benign - beliefs.

    For instance, I take it you would object - as do I - to much of the pro-Islam teaching of comparative religion that is going on in our schools. In doing so, you would be standing on the same principle as these Allan parents - that the wish of the state to encourage a given mode of thought should not be allowed to go unchecked regardless of the parents' wishes.

    Ultimately, I do not believe it is the place of the state to dictate to children what their beliefs should be.
    Are you sure you know enough about what this Brummie school has been teaching to describe it as "indoctrination"?

    I'm really not sure lessons about contraception come with any less of a value judgement. Even if these lessons focus on the utilitarian benefits of contraception, rather than the perceived moral ones, this would still be abhorrent to someone who considers contraception to be morally wrong.

    Yet presumably you'd have no truck with such a person, which seems wholly inconsistent to me.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Of course not. Apostasy is punishable by death in Sharia.

    As for the heemasexual practices, I don't know and I'm unsure what the value of such lessons would be. For millennia, our puddle-jumping pals have not been taught anything about how to have sex and yet they've managed to figure it out all on their own - presumably through trial and error.
    and with heterosexual practices too, I would have thought...

    another Monty Python opportunity...
    “Other clubs never came into my thoughts once I knew Arsenal wanted to sign me.”

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Monty92 View Post
    Are you sure you know enough about what this Brummie school has been teaching to describe it as "indoctrination"?

    I'm really not sure lessons about contraception come with any less of a value judgement. Even if these lessons focus on the utilitarian benefits of contraception, rather than the moral ones, this would still be abhorrent to someone who considers contraception to be morally wrong. Yet presumably you'd have no truck with such a person, which seems inconsistent to me?
    Yes, because its mere existence is indoctrination. It is a programme called 'No Outsiders' that 'interrogates and challenges heteronormativity in primary schools' (consider the sinister nature of that for one moment). It is specifically designed to teach that there is nothing abnormal about alternative sexual or gender categories. Now that is by definition untrue, since those things are patently abnormal - something it is perfectly possible to agree with without implying anything pejorative. So what you have there is an attempt to teach a lie to children. I think I'd call that indoctrination.

    And, as a Catholic, I can tell you that it is perfectly possible to teach the utilitarian benefits of contraception while accepting that for some those benefits are outweighed by the doctrinal prohibition of the practice.
    Last edited by Burney; 03-05-2019 at 09:41 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by IUFG View Post
    and with heterosexual practices too, I would have thought...

    another Monty Python opportunity...
    Well I suppose with heterosexual sex education, there is the business of explaining conception and how it works. There are plenty of examples of people who had no such education getting it horribly wrong for years and wondering why no children were pitching up.

    With gayness, on the other hand, there's less that can go wrong, I suppose. There are no rights and wrongs in terms of the actual mechanics.

  10. #10
    A
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Well I suppose with heterosexual sex education, there is the business of explaining conception and how it works. There are plenty of examples of people who had no such education getting it horribly wrong for years and wondering why no children were pitching up.

    With gayness, on the other hand, there's less that can go wrong, I suppose. There are no rights and wrongs in terms of the actual mechanics.
    One thing that could go very wrong is if you're gay but are taught at home that being gay is sinful. Some might even call this child abuse.

    Call me weird, but I'm pretty chilled about schools making some efforts to correct for this.

    Anyway, what has Owen Jones had to say about all this? Presumably he's come out all guns blazing and condemned the homophobic protester parents?
    Last edited by Monty92; 03-05-2019 at 11:14 AM.

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