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Thread: Looks like May's having to cave on the amendments to the trade bill.

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult View Post
    No.

    The logic of that position is that we had vote for full time representatives to make these complex decisions for us.

    As you know full well. And which you'd fully support were Jezza's MPs to rebel on a manifesto commitment to steal all your money and send you to a gulag. Were that to happen, you'd be praising our representative democracy as you have on here many times in the past.
    It is perfectly legitimate that, on the questions of sovereignty and self-determination, people should be offered a referendum. There are clear precedents for this - not least in the 1975 vote to stay in the Common Market, the devolution referenda and the Scottish vote to remain in the Union. There was precisely zero outcry about the dangers of direct democracy after those results precisely because the results went the way the establishment wanted them to.
    Afterwards, precisely no-one questioned their legitimacy even - as in the case for Welsh devolution - the margin of victory was infinitesimally small. Nobody said people didn't know what they were voting for or suggested that it was for elected representatives to fudge, delay and frustrate their outcomes. Why not? Because they went the 'right' way.
    The Brexit vote did not go the 'right' way. And now suddenly the establishment and its slavish adherents (like you) are out in force saying it can't happen because it threatens representative democracy - having never made the argument about any other referendum we've ever had.
    In other words, your sudden concern for representative over direct democracy is nothing more than hypocritical, self-serving cant that is manifesting purely because you didn't get your own way.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult View Post
    No.

    The logic of that position is that we had vote for full time representatives to make these complex decisions for us.
    So you keep saying, but would you be saying it if all the remain-led main parties give us euro-sceptic MPs to vote for, and if they actually reflected the views of the people?

    EDIT : Forget that - it's badly worded and I'm out of time.
    Last edited by Ash; 07-17-2018 at 10:53 AM. Reason: posted *******s

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Callaghan's government was pretty ****ed
    Much as I hate Maggie, the unions needed a slapping for bringing down Sunny Jim over the Winter of Discontent. {They threw away a 5% Lab lead that autumn so they only have themselves to blame.}

    Maggie could and did achieve this.

    Corbyn would not be able to unite the country behind any Brexit vision nor could his econ policies make up for the fall in growth a hard brexit would bring.

    In short, May, JRM and Jezza make the 1979 situation seem like the Great Reform Act and the emancipation of slaves.

    We iz fücked, bruv.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    It is perfectly legitimate that, on the questions of sovereignty and self-determination, people should be offered a referendum. There are clear precedents for this - not least in the 1975 vote to stay in the Common Market, the devolution referenda and the Scottish vote to remain in the Union. There was precisely zero outcry about the dangers of direct democracy after those results precisely because the results went the way the establishment wanted them to.
    Afterwards, precisely no-one questioned their legitimacy even - as in the case for Welsh devolution - the margin of victory was infinitesimally small. Nobody said people didn't know what they were voting for or suggested that it was for elected representatives to fudge, delay and frustrate their outcomes. Why not? Because they went the 'right' way.
    The Brexit vote did not go the 'right' way. And now suddenly the establishment and its slavish adherents (like you) are out in force saying it can't happen because it threatens representative democracy - having never made the argument about any other referendum we've ever had.
    In other words, your sudden concern for representative over direct democracy is nothing more than hypocritical, self-serving cant that is manifesting purely because you didn't get your own way.
    As is your devotion to democracy and the will of ordinary people. And quite sickening it is too.

    We had a vote in 1975 and voted to stay in. Everyone knew what they were voting for. It was done and dusted.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    It is perfectly legitimate that, on the questions of sovereignty and self-determination, people should be offered a referendum. There are clear precedents for this - not least in the 1975 vote to stay in the Common Market, the devolution referenda and the Scottish vote to remain in the Union. There was precisely zero outcry about the dangers of direct democracy after those results precisely because the results went the way the establishment wanted them to.
    Afterwards, precisely no-one questioned their legitimacy even - as in the case for Welsh devolution - the margin of victory was infinitesimally small. Nobody said people didn't know what they were voting for or suggested that it was for elected representatives to fudge, delay and frustrate their outcomes. Why not? Because they went the 'right' way.
    The Brexit vote did not go the 'right' way. And now suddenly the establishment and its slavish adherents (like you) are out in force saying it can't happen because it threatens representative democracy - having never made the argument about any other referendum we've ever had.
    In other words, your sudden concern for representative over direct democracy is nothing more than hypocritical, self-serving cant that is manifesting purely because you didn't get your own way.
    It is also perfectly legitimate that, on the questions of sovereignty and self-determination, people aren't.

    We didn't vote on Charles II's execution, the Glorious Rev, the Great Reform Act etc etc etc.

    We didn't vote on giving up India or entering the EEC or the change to the EU or on EU enlargement.

    B - you're not stupid. You know full well that the 52% voted for many different things, none of which would command a majority on its own. You know why both parties and politics in general has been completely hamstrung by this fact.

    So you're either just basically trolling the remainers, or you simply don't want to admit this because it could lead to the Greening solution.

    I was chatting with a rabid Brexiter on the Times yesterday but both agreed we need another referendum. There was no vote for any type of Brexit, the Tory leadership campaign meant, as last woman standing, she didn't even have a mandate from her party. And the country refused to give her one at the GE the next year.

    As such, there is no mandate and no-one knows what to do, leading the two wings of the Tory party ever closer to civil war.

    The chap on the Times and I both agreed we need one last vote, with AV, as suggested. Then whatever wins, even by 1 vote, we all just shut up cos it's getting tedious now.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult View Post
    Much as I hate Maggie, the unions needed a slapping for bringing down Sunny Jim over the Winter of Discontent. {They threw away a 5% Lab lead that autumn so they only have themselves to blame.}

    Maggie could and did achieve this.

    Corbyn would not be able to unite the country behind any Brexit vision nor could his econ policies make up for the fall in growth a hard brexit would bring.

    In short, May, JRM and Jezza make the 1979 situation seem like the Great Reform Act and the emancipation of slaves.

    We iz fücked, bruv.
    I think they mid to late 70s and early to mid 80s were pretty ****ing awful for all concerned, and not just because I was born.

    We iz ****ed, to coin your phrase, but I firmly believe that Corbyn can sort this mess out. He has my vote

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult View Post
    It is also perfectly legitimate that, on the questions of sovereignty and self-determination, people aren't.

    We didn't vote on Charles II's execution, the Glorious Rev, the Great Reform Act etc etc etc.

    We didn't vote on giving up India or entering the EEC or the change to the EU or on EU enlargement.

    B - you're not stupid. You know full well that the 52% voted for many different things, none of which would command a majority on its own. You know why both parties and politics in general has been completely hamstrung by this fact.

    So you're either just basically trolling the remainers, or you simply don't want to admit this because it could lead to the Greening solution.

    I was chatting with a rabid Brexiter on the Times yesterday but both agreed we need another referendum. There was no vote for any type of Brexit, the Tory leadership campaign meant, as last woman standing, she didn't even have a mandate from her party. And the country refused to give her one at the GE the next year.

    As such, there is no mandate and no-one knows what to do, leading the two wings of the Tory party ever closer to civil war.

    The chap on the Times and I both agreed we need one last vote, with AV, as suggested. Then whatever wins, even by 1 vote, we all just shut up cos it's getting tedious now.
    THe civil war in the Conservativeparty needs to happen. Even b acknowledged this before the referendum. It has been simmering away for30 years. I thoroughly welcome it. We now have two major parties that are completely ****ed and whose leaders struggle to command a majority in their own party, let alone in parliament.

    The EU are finding this tremendously funny. And it is, in a way.

    Also very serious, of course.....

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Ash View Post
    So you keep saying, but would you be saying it if all the remain-led main parties give us euro-sceptic MPs to vote for, and if they actually reflected the views of the people?

    EDIT : Forget that - it's badly worded and I'm out of time.
    You had Ukip to vote for. Or take control of your party's selection ctte.

    As a Lab moderate, I'm fighting against Momentum locally because I know what can happen. I'm not moaning about them trying to impose Stalinist candidates cos that's the way things are. I'm fighting it. And given the Tory clusterfück, the Tories on here better hope the likes of me win, cos a GE won by Jez and loads of momentum MPs will lead to Venezuela with added gulags.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    As is your devotion to democracy and the will of ordinary people. And quite sickening it is too.

    We had a vote in 1975 and voted to stay in. Everyone knew what they were voting for. It was done and dusted.
    No. It isn't. You like to think it is, but you're wrong. You assume the persona I adopt on here has always reflected my actual views. Since you don't actually know me in real life, that's fair enough. In the nicest possible way, though, I don't really care if you think I'm being hypocritical, since it's not germane.

    What is increasingly clear is that this debate is breaking down along the lines of those who actually care about the fundamental democratic principle that people ought to decide how and by whom they are governed and those who give lip service to the idea, but really just see it as just a convenient figleaf for technocracy. I think you fall into the latter category.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    THe civil war in the Conservativeparty needs to happen. Even b acknowledged this before the referendum. It has been simmering away for30 years. I thoroughly welcome it. We now have two major parties that are completely ****ed and whose leaders struggle to command a majority in their own party, let alone in parliament.

    The EU are finding this tremendously funny. And it is, in a way.

    Also very serious, of course.....
    More like 170 years.

    Peel split the party over free trade vs protection in 1846.

    Joe Chamberlain did it again c. 1900.

    They always do this. {Peel - good. JC/JRM - bad.}

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