Click here for Arsenal FC news and reports

Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ... 567
Results 61 to 70 of 70

Thread: Looks like May's having to cave on the amendments to the trade bill.

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult View Post
    1. A precedent set in 1975? There wasn't for changes including Maastricht and EU enlargement. No-one asked me if i thought a good idea to let in loads of Poles and Romanians. {I do, btw, but there was no vote and many didn't.} If you say 1975 means we can vote on this over and over again, then why not tomorrow?

    2. Is Norway in the EU? Is Switzerland, Turkey or Canada? No. Is there a mandate to copy any of them, from the vote, from May's victory as Tory leader or from the GE 2017? No.

    3. And you know damn well that all the 48% were voting to wake up on Friday as they went to sleep on Thursday. While some leavers cared most about sovereignty, others immigration, others money/NHS etc. That is why there's been the dispute over what to do. Or do you think both parties and all the MPs have been disagreeing just to annoy you, B? Have you considered we are in this position because there isn't a mandate for any of the options, including me wanting go remain or for the Berni-style Brexit? That's why the country's politics has been a clusterfück for the last 2 years.

    4. We are not threatening them with financial ruin. What we are saying is they may well be ruined giving them what they want. Fair play, they are adults. But the Tory party nows owns this and will be punished when poor voters realise the land of milk and honey was a myth and unfortunately my lot are run by a semi-literate Stalinist who will steal all your money, B, and send you to a gulag. Be careful what you wish for.

    2.
    1. Your first point illustrates perfectly why the EU has turned this country's politics into such a mess. We haven't been given any choice on this fundamental issue since 1975 and that denial of choice or political diversity on the subject has built resentment, not lessened it. 82% of the populace (including 80% of Labour voters) wanted a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, but Labour ran away from its promise to deliver one because it knew it'd lose and lose heavily. That sowed the seeds of Brexit. Had there been a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, there's a strong case for saying Brexit would never have happened. In other words: that democratic deficit has brought us to where we are now. Moral: deny the people a voice at your peril.

    2. There is a mandate for getting out of the EU. The nature of that withdrawal is a matter for the politicians and their success or failure will be judged by the voters. However, what is certain is that there is NO mandate whatsoever for remaining in the EU.

    3. I know no such thing and neither do you. Some voted to remain because they actually believe in the happy horsesh1t about ending the nation state and subsuming ourselves within a Federal Europe. Others because they didn't like the EU but were worried about the financial impact of leaving. Others still because they believed the lies about the EU not seeking to create an EU army or because they didn't like Nigel Farage; or because they liked Mr Siddiqi next door and didn't want to vote with the nasty Brexit racists; or because they believed the stuff about the sky falling in on June 24th; or (in the case of my parents - which they now regret) because they thought it was a decision for younger people and younger people seemed to want to stay in; or because they work abroad a lot and the EU suits them; or because, or because, or because...
    In other words, a multiplicity of reasons - just the same as Leavers. For you to try and claim 'they all just wanted things the same' with no nuance is exactly the same as me saying 'they all voted to leave the EU' - it is what the referendum was about, but it ignores individual motivations. However, what is clear is that on neither side does the fact that there was a range of reasons for voting justify ignoring their vote.

    4. You simply aren't able to drag yourself away from the poisonous paradigm that millions who voted for Brexit were stupid and believed in a land of milk and honey. They didn't. They just wanted to get out of the EU and many of them felt they had nothing to lose by doing so. Again, however, there is no reason to ignore their vote.
    Last edited by Burney; 07-17-2018 at 01:49 PM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    So if we officially leave the EU but effectively remain a part of all of its core legal, financial and trade components, that will be fine. Because that is. What people voted for-leaving the EU.

    I completely agree. The problem comes when people start to defend hard brexit on the grounds that it is what people voted for.

    At what point does the manner of our departure become so weak and perfunctory that you call for a second referendum?
    I wouldn't like that, but if the ruling party (via the electorate) were able to get such a result through Parliament and win a subsequent election to secure that result, I would have no choice but to accept it.

    However, that clearly isn't the case.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    I wouldn't like that, but if the ruling party (via the electorate) were able to get such a result through Parliament and win a subsequent election to secure that result, I would have no choice but to accept it.

    However, that clearly isn't the case.
    So parliament is sovereign again.

    I thought the mandate was from the referendum? Would you accept a party reversing it completely and winning a subsequent election?

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by redgunamo View Post
    What did you imagine would happen if all your sort voluntarily cut your own bollócks off, P?
    I thought the point was that 'my sort' never had any *******s to begin with?

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    So parliament is sovereign again.

    I thought the mandate was from the referendum? Would you accept a party reversing it completely and winning a subsequent election?
    Parliament is sovereign, but it does not exist in isolation. It cannot realistically hope to ignore the biggest democratic event in British history and get away with it. To that extent at least, the system works.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Parliament is sovereign, but it does not exist in isolation. It cannot realistically hope to ignore the biggest democratic event in British history and get away with it. To that extent at least, the system works.
    The correct answer is that parliament itself called the referendum and effectively deferred the decision in principle to the public. It cannot claw that decision back because it didnt like the answer. It must, however, find a way of implementing it that it defines as being in the public interest.

    One can remain sovereign whilst delegating individual decisions.

    It remains, however, a decision in principle only as nobody asked the public to vote on different types or aspects of leaving. Parliament retains the authority to make those decisions.

    Its messy but its constitutionally acceptable. The only problem is...well, parliament is a bit **** at this sort of thing.

  7. #67

    What shape will "not getting away with it" take d'ya reckon b? Will Britain's army of

    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Parliament is sovereign, but it does not exist in isolation. It cannot realistically hope to ignore the biggest democratic event in British history and get away with it. To that extent at least, the system works.
    swivel eyed loons take to the streets and go nose to nose with The Police and/or The Army?

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    I thought the point was that 'my sort' never had any *******s to begin with?
    That's the thing, isn't it; you used to
    "Plenty of strikers can score goals," he said, gesturing to the famous old stands casting shadows around us.

    "But a lot have found it difficult wearing the number 9 shirt for The Arsenal."

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by redgunamo View Post
    That's the thing, isn't it; you used to
    Oh, when was that?

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    1. Your first point illustrates perfectly why the EU has turned this country's politics into such a mess. We haven't been given any choice on this fundamental issue since 1975 and that denial of choice or political diversity on the subject has built resentment, not lessened it. 82% of the populace (including 80% of Labour voters) wanted a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, but Labour ran away from its promise to deliver one because it knew it'd lose and lose heavily. That sowed the seeds of Brexit. Had there been a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, there's a strong case for saying Brexit would never have happened. In other words: that democratic deficit has brought us to where we are now. Moral: deny the people a voice at your peril.

    2. There is a mandate for getting out of the EU. The nature of that withdrawal is a matter for the politicians and their success or failure will be judged by the voters. However, what is certain is that there is NO mandate whatsoever for remaining in the EU.

    3. I know no such thing and neither do you. Some voted to remain because they actually believe in the happy horsesh1t about ending the nation state and subsuming ourselves within a Federal Europe. Others because they didn't like the EU but were worried about the financial impact of leaving. Others still because they believed the lies about the EU not seeking to create an EU army or because they didn't like Nigel Farage; or because they liked Mr Siddiqi next door and didn't want to vote with the nasty Brexit racists; or because they believed the stuff about the sky falling in on June 24th; or (in the case of my parents - which they now regret) because they thought it was a decision for younger people and younger people seemed to want to stay in; or because they work abroad a lot and the EU suits them; or because, or because, or because...
    In other words, a multiplicity of reasons - just the same as Leavers. For you to try and claim 'they all just wanted things the same' with no nuance is exactly the same as me saying 'they all voted to leave the EU' - it is what the referendum was about, but it ignores individual motivations. However, what is clear is that on neither side does the fact that there was a range of reasons for voting justify ignoring their vote.

    4. You simply aren't able to drag yourself away from the poisonous paradigm that millions who voted for Brexit were stupid and believed in a land of milk and honey. They didn't. They just wanted to get out of the EU and many of them felt they had nothing to lose by doing so. Again, however, there is no reason to ignore their vote.
    1. Agreed. But the lack of a Lisbon vote disproves your statement that such things are always settled by a referendum according to constitution convention. Can't have it both ways, old bean.

    2. But how do we choose which Leave without a mandate? Will you be happy if Parliament unilaterally signs us up to the SM and CU?

    3. Now you're being wilfully stupid. If we remained, we wouldn't have wasted 2 years discussing just how we remained. It matters not that some voted from fear, some voted to help the young and maybe one person voted simply cos they loved driving their sound system round Europe for nigh on 3 decades getting off his tits in fields across the continent. That is irrelevant and you know it. Would you be happy purely for an EFTA vs WTO vote, to give the dappy bint a mandate? Cos she's too weak to work it out herself.

    4. So when my sis-in-law said at the time she was voting to "**** 'em all" and last night that it was also to send money to the NHS cos her other sis {who works there} kept telling her how underfunded it was and she believed the £350m a week, you think I'm making it up?

    I'm not saying all or even many were like her. But to deny they exist and think everyone thinks like you is both ignorant and arrogant.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •