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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir C View Post
    Both apologies graciously offered and accepted. Thank you.
    Except that you did make it quite clear you were desperate for England to lose. You must relinquish at least one of the apologies. You are, I believe, first and foremost a gentleman c?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Monty92 View Post
    No, you see, when Sol Campbell signed for Arsenal, he ceased being a Spurs player, voluntarily severing his links with a club I hate, and committing himself to the club I love.

    Apart from that it was a ****ing brilliant analogy


    ...and yet you mentioned Kyle 'Des' Walker above. Remember.... he ceased being a Spurs player, voluntarily severing his links with a club you hate.

    You should like him 50% more than the other Spurs players
    "Scoring a goal is better than sex" - Whoever said that was sticking it to the wrong woman

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Ash View Post
    Part of the 'charm', if one might use that word, of international football is precisely that it does, or should, allow the tribal rivalries to dissolve for a short while and for fans of the game to be united behind a team which is local to all of them.

    Perhaps deep down we tire of the compulsory hatred for people who follow a team with a different colour shirt from another part of town. I met a bloke at the cricket last week - a fellow Middlesex fan watching them play the Surrey rivals - who was Spurs, and as he said: "It's ok - it's the summer".

    The other thing is that World Cups are a chance for non-football fans to experience, and maybe enjoy, the ups and downs of football.

    I admit to having my doubts about the Spurs component of this team, but eventually decided it was actually preferable to the collection of supposedly word-class thundercùnts of previous years who achieved rather less than this group of more modest abillity.

    One way of measuring 'passion' is how hard it hurts to lose and long it hurts for. It hurt quite a bit last night, but not much, if any today. So I care a lot less than the two days of hurt I expect when Arsenal go out of something, which I would expect, but others might feel differently.

    What is notable is that the people who hate England the most here are perhaps the three with the most proudly and robustly held right wing views, with a strong sideline in misanthropy. Interesting, that, should they ever question anyone's patriotism.

    I think one may wish to to distinguish International Football from Tournament Football. Come international week, most of us on here are bitching about the lack of "real" footy and the god awful qualifiers / friendlies. How many fans actually watch the qualifiers with the same interest?

    Come tournament finals, we do tend to watch most games.

    Of course, your last paragraph perfectly encapsulates this board.
    "Scoring a goal is better than sex" - Whoever said that was sticking it to the wrong woman

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Ash View Post
    Part of the 'charm', if one might use that word, of international football is precisely that it does, or should, allow the tribal rivalries to dissolve for a short while and for fans of the game to be united behind a team which is local to all of them.

    Perhaps deep down we tire of the compulsory hatred for people who follow a team with a different colour shirt from another part of town. I met a bloke at the cricket last week - a fellow Middlesex fan watching them play the Surrey rivals - who was Spurs, and as he said: "It's ok - it's the summer".

    The other thing is that World Cups are a chance for non-football fans to experience, and maybe enjoy, the ups and downs of football.

    I admit to having my doubts about the Spurs component of this team, but eventually decided it was actually preferable to the collection of supposedly word-class thundercùnts of previous years who achieved rather less than this group of more modest abillity.

    One way of measuring 'passion' is how hard it hurts to lose and long it hurts for. It hurt quite a bit last night, but not much, if any today. So I care a lot less than the two days of hurt I expect when Arsenal go out of something, which I would expect, but others might feel differently.

    What is notable is that the people who hate England the most here are perhaps the three with the most proudly and robustly held right wing views, with a strong sideline in misanthropy. Interesting, that, should they ever question anyone's patriotism.
    All very nice, a, but you fail to spot the glaring contradiction at the heart of your argument.

    You admit that you find this England team preferable to its predecessors containing said ‘thùndercûnts’. In doing so, you concede that your affection or otherwise for England teams is negotiable based on the individuals they contain. Which means that, in essence, you concede that the principle underpinning my distaste for this England team is valid. You are, in other words, no different to me in principle, we just happen to have different criteria.

    Speaking personally, though, what really bothers me about England football teams is the sheer level of conformity they tap into. I’ve always despised unthinking, reflexive conformity and that is at the heart of what you choose to call my misanthopy. That isn’t to say I’m not outwardly conformist in many respects, but I can say with my hand on my heart that where I conform, it is as a consequence of thought and self-examination. So for instance, I am patriotic because there are many things about this country which are admirable and worth defending. However, those things do not include a mediocre football team teeming with Spurs shítcùnts. And, if I may say so, I find the notion of assessing patriotism based on support for a sports team patently ludicrous. And it’s no less ludicrous when you propose it than when Norman Tebbit does.

    For natural-born conformists who have never examined an idea in their lives, of course, England supporting in World Cups is second nature. They are quite able to reconcile hating Spurs 204 weeks out of 208 and then cheering on ‘Harry’ and ‘Alli’ the other four because they’ve never actually bothered thinking about it. Confront them with the parent absurdity of their position and they become enraged and start indulging in convoluted post-rationalisations for their own intellectual inconsistency and reflexive conformity. They will attack you because you have not done the same and use as justification for their attacks that millions of people agree with them and not with you. Because, to the conformist, if everyone’s doing it, it must be right.

    I’m afraid I’m just not built that way.
    Last edited by Burney; 07-12-2018 at 02:27 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    All very nice, a, but you fail to spot the glaring contradiction at the heart of your argument.

    You admit that you find this England team preferable to its predecessors containing said ‘thùndercûnts’. In doing so, you concede that your affection or otherwise for England teams is negotiable based on the individuals they contain. Which means that, in essence, you concede that the principle underpinning my distaste for this England team is valid. You are, in other words, no different to me in principle, we just happen to have different criteria.

    Speaking personally, though, what really bothers me about England football teams is the sheer level of conformity they tap into. I’ve always despised unthinking, reflexive conformity and that is at the heart of what you choose to call my misanthopy. That isn’t to say I’m not outwardly conformist in many respects, but I can say with my hand on my heart that where I conform, it is as a consequence of thought and self-examination. So for instance, I am patriotic because there are many things about this country which are admirable and worth defending. However, those things do not include a mediocre football team teeming with Spurs shítcùnts. And, if I may say so, I find the notion of assessing patriotism based on support for a sports team patently ludicrous. And it’s no less ludicrous when you propose it than when Norman Tebbit does.

    For natural-born conformists who have never examined an idea in their lives, of course, England supporting in World Cups is second nature. They are quite able to reconcile hating Spurs 204 weeks out of 208 and then cheering on ‘Harry’ and ‘Alli’ the other four because they’ve never actually bothered thinking about it. Confront them with the parent absurdity of their position and they become enraged and start indulging in convoluted post-rationalisations for their own intellectual inconsistency and reflexive conformity. They will attack you because you have not done the same and use as justification for their attacks that millions of people agree with them and not with you. Because, to the conformist, if everyone’s doing it, it must be right.

    I’m afraid I’m just not built that way.
    At least Monty was concise in showing himself to be a ****. Waffling with no point but to bore the reader into submission is the tactic of a arrogant cad

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Luis Anaconda View Post
    At least Monty was concise in showing himself to be a ****. Waffling with no point but to bore the reader into submission is the tactic of a arrogant cad
    It’s OK if you didn’t read it all, la. That’s why I utterly destroyed a’s argument in the first two paragraphs - so that those with short attention spans got the gist and didn’t have to bother with the rest.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Monty92 View Post
    For me, Clive, it's simply about intellectual integrity and consistency.

    I'd compare it to people like Jorge who quite clearly want Brexit to end badly because it will validate their own political ideology. That's obviously pretty contemptible, but it's at least loyal to his driving motivation (to be proven right). The real crime is the lack of intellectual integrity he shows by denying that this is his true, guiding motive.

    Now, you could say I am similarly contemptible for wanting the country of my birth to lose a football game because I don't like some of the players. But I'm at least being consistent to my true, guiding motive (to see players I hate lose). And the only negative consequence is that England lose a football game.

    I'd have thought that would be forgivable, if not understandable to those less bothered by such trifling matters as intellectual consistency and integrity
    No, your mistake is in believing that everybody else is like you and, as a consequence, their 'passion' is contrived. Not everyone chases intellectual consistency, particularly when it comes to something as spectacularly unintellectual as football.

    You are not like other people. Ash explains the motivation for a lot of football fans beautifully above. THere is a genuine irritation in seeing those who clearly dont understand the game at all piping up with their nonsensical views but I would. Have thought an intellectual heavyweight such as yourself would be used to that.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    It’s OK if you didn’t read it all, la. That’s why I utterly destroyed a’s argument in the first two paragraphs - so that those with short attention spans got the gist and didn’t have to bother with the rest.
    I'm still pissed from last night, b (in a proper British sense not an American one) so I'll just stick to being abusive is that's all right with you

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    No, your mistake is in believing that everybody else is like you and, as a consequence, their 'passion' is contrived. Not everyone chases intellectual consistency, particularly when it comes to something as spectacularly unintellectual as football.

    You are not like other people. Ash explains the motivation for a lot of football fans beautifully above. THere is a genuine irritation in seeing those who clearly dont understand the game at all piping up with their nonsensical views but I would. Have thought an intellectual heavyweight such as yourself would be used to that.
    No, m isn’t like other people. For a start he’s much brighter and thoughtful (not in the sense of being kind, natch) than other people. The fact that he cares about things like intellectual consistency irritates those who do, of course, but I think it’s a good thing. I don’t think he’s ever got a minute imagined other people are like him. He is very aware he is different.

    Which is good. Who wants to be like ‘other people’, ffs?

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    All very nice, a, but you fail to spot the glaring contradiction at the heart of your argument.

    You admit that you find this England team preferable to its predecessors containing said ‘thùndercûnts’. In doing so, you concede that your affection or otherwise for England teams is negotiable based on the individuals they contain. Which means that, in essence, you concede that the principle underpinning my distaste for this England team is valid. You are, in other words, no different to me in principle, we just happen to have different criteria.

    Speaking personally, though, what really bothers me about England football teams is the sheer level of conformity they tap into. I’ve always despised unthinking, reflexive conformity and that is at the heart of what you choose to call my misanthopy. That isn’t to say I’m not outwardly conformist in many respects, but I can say with my hand on my heart that where I conform, it is as a consequence of thought and self-examination. So for instance, I am patriotic because there are many things about this country which are admirable and worth defending. However, those things do not include a mediocre football team teeming with Spurs shítcùnts. And, if I may say so, I find the notion of assessing patriotism based on support for a sports team patently ludicrous. And it’s no less ludicrous when you propose it than when Norman Tebbit does.

    For natural-born conformists who have never examined an idea in their lives, of course, England supporting in World Cups is second nature. They are quite able to reconcile hating Spurs 204 weeks out of 208 and then cheering on ‘Harry’ and ‘Alli’ the other four because they’ve never actually bothered thinking about it. Confront them with the parent absurdity of their position and they become enraged and start indulging in convoluted post-rationalisations for their own intellectual inconsistency and reflexive conformity. They will attack you because you have not done the same and use as justification for their attacks that millions of people agree with them and not with you. Because, to the conformist, if everyone’s doing it, it must be right.

    I’m afraid I’m just not built that way.
    I think there are millions of people whose loyalties to the england team are negotiable. This is why we keep hearing about the team 'reconnecting' with the fans. You have chosen to remove yourself from this because there are Spurs players in the team. I think your reason is a bit ****tish but I understand where you are coming from.

    What I dont understand is why you are here issuing warnings to those who have gone the other way and embraced the side. Within the context of an AWIMB that you tend to dominate, THEY are the non-conformists. Bravo tot hem- and to me for being one of them.

    I dont think an englishman supporting england at a world cup is a particularly good example of rank, unthinking conformity. Ash describes the benefits of being part of something bigger and it is tempting to get caught up in it rather than to sneer on the sidelines. I have tried both and dont feel terribly comfortable with either.

    It can also be due to something more than your place of birth. I have a natural affinity to an english style of football as I think most of us do. I quite like seeing lads from Rotherham crashing into silky Colombians. Its fun!

    I will give you the Norman Tebbit bit. Glad to see that even you are finally realising what a complete and utter ****ing **** Norman Tebbit was

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