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Thread: I must say, I do like the way the Israelis don't fvck about.

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    With a mighty army and the most sophisticated military weaponry that american money can buy, I would have sat the other side of the fence and said'see you when you get here, pal'......

    I dont actually know what has happened, havent caught up with the news yet....

    I do think it is rather offensive of you to refer to these people as males. How do you know how they identify their gender ?

    You are worse than Germaine Greer!
    Right. So you'd have allowed your first line of defence to be breached before responding, thus endangering the lives and position of your military personnel?

    Zulu would've been a much shorter film if you'd been in charge at Rorke's Drift, mate.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Right. So you'd have allowed your first line of defence to be breached before responding, thus endangering the lives and position of your military personnel?

    Zulu would've been a much shorter film if you'd been in charge at Rorke's Drift, mate.
    Boys with wire cutters, dude. THis is hardly Rorke's Drift.

    I think you are missing, in classic Don Pacifico style, the notion of a proportionate response. It is what responsible, mature nations do.

    We have moved beyond the era of Lord Palmerston. Apart from the Falklands, obviously.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Boys with wire cutters, dude. THis is hardly Rorke's Drift.

    I think you are missing, in classic Don Pacifico style, the notion of a proportionate response. It is what responsible, mature nations do.

    We have moved beyond the era of Lord Palmerston. Apart from the Falklands, obviously.
    Yes. Boys sent there to breach the defence in the cynical hope that their youth would either a/ stop the soldiers shooting them or b/ make for good publicity if they did get shot.

    Of course, had they simply been allowed to breach the defences, the defensive position would have been fatally undermined and it is perfectly possible for large numbers prepared to take heavy casualties to swarm smaller groups of soldiers - however heavily armed - and to kill them (see Mogadishu 1993 for evidence). The Israelis - correctly - were not prepared to risk that happening.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Yes. Boys sent there to breach the defence in the cynical hope that their youth would either a/ stop the soldiers shooting them or b/ make for good publicity if they did get shot.

    Of course, had they simply been allowed to breach the defences, the defensive position would have been fatally undermined and it is perfectly possible for large numbers prepared to take heavy casualties to swarm smaller groups of soldiers - however heavily armed - and to kill them (see Mogadishu 1993 for evidence). The Israelis - correctly - were not prepared to risk that happening.
    That is true. However, you are hovering between referrring to the Israeli army as some combination of the 2nd Warwickshire at Rorke's Drift and Dad's Army. THis is Israel, not Warmington on Sea.

    It is fair to assume that Israel has assembled a force sufficient to repel a few lads with wire cutters. If they hadn't, and that is why they were forced to open fire, that is their own fault and causes grave concerns as to the country's use of its military might.

    If my position seems soft, lefty or silly I can only offer you the fact that it seems to accord with the response of governments such as Germany and our very own lords and masters.

    **** me, if the Germans think you have gone a bit far you need to look at yourself.....

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    That is true. However, you are hovering between referrring to the Israeli army as some combination of the 2nd Warwickshire at Rorke's Drift and Dad's Army. THis is Israel, not Warmington on Sea.

    It is fair to assume that Israel has assembled a force sufficient to repel a few lads with wire cutters. If they hadn't, and that is why they were forced to open fire, that is their own fault and causes grave concerns as to the country's use of its military might.

    If my position seems soft, lefty or silly I can only offer you the fact that it seems to accord with the response of governments such as Germany and our very own lords and masters.

    **** me, if the Germans think you have gone a bit far you need to look at yourself.....
    Not really. The Germans government are the fvcking idiots who thought letting a few million third world muslim men into western Europe would be a great plan. Our government are the people who hound our soldiers for doing their duty while protecting terrorists and allowing ISIS members back into the country.

    There are four year-olds I would ask for guidance on questions of national security before I'd ask the governments of most western European nations. They are - pretty much without exception - weak, vacillating, cowardly cvnts.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Not really. The Germans government are the fvcking idiots who thought letting a few million third world muslim men into western Europe would be a great plan. Our government are the people who hound our soldiers for doing their duty while protecting terrorists and allowing ISIS members back into the country.

    There are four year-olds I would ask for guidance on questions of national security before I'd ask the governments of most western European nations. They are - pretty much without exception - weak, vacillating, cowardly cvnts.
    I am assuming that you are exempting President Trump from that description, who just happens to be the only major leader who fully backs Israel's actions. No surprise as we know how fond he is off walls and borders.

    Did you think Neville Chamberlain was a weak, vacillating cowardly ****?

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    I am assuming that you are exempting President Trump from that description, who just happens to be the only major leader who fully backs Israel's actions. No surprise as we know how fond he is off walls and borders.

    Did you think Neville Chamberlain was a weak, vacillating cowardly ****?
    Of course. Trump gets it. People don't actually want much from their governments other than to protect them regardless of the 'optics' or other sensitivities.

    Chamberlain was to some extent a victim of previous governments' failure to anticipate and prepare for the need for war (I'm looking at you, Stanley Baldwin) and did some good things post-Munich when he finally realised that war was unavoidable, but yes, some of his actions were shamefully craven.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Of course. Trump gets it. People don't actually want much from their governments other than to protect them regardless of the 'optics' or other sensitivities.

    Chamberlain was to some extent a victim of previous governments' failure to anticipate and prepare for the need for war (I'm looking at you, Stanley Baldwin) and did some good things post-Munich when he finally realised that war was unavoidable, but yes, some of his actions were shamefully craven.
    See, to me that is incredibly unfair. His crime (if there was one) was being taken in by Hitler's true ambitions. THe policy he followed was dictated not by previous governments but overwhelmingly by popular opinion, which was genuinely terrified of a war and particularly a war that could be avoided.

    There is a responsibility that comes with being a major power where the prospect of action, and occasionally the threat of it, carries moral as well as military might. It comes with maturity. It is perhaps slightly unfair to demand this maturity from ISrael at this point in their history, given the fairly recent past and the stormy present. But it needs to develop.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    See, to me that is incredibly unfair. His crime (if there was one) was being taken in by Hitler's true ambitions. THe policy he followed was dictated not by previous governments but overwhelmingly by popular opinion, which was genuinely terrified of a war and particularly a war that could be avoided.

    There is a responsibility that comes with being a major power where the prospect of action, and occasionally the threat of it, carries moral as well as military might. It comes with maturity. It is perhaps slightly unfair to demand this maturity from ISrael at this point in their history, given the fairly recent past and the stormy present. But it needs to develop.
    Israelis understand rather better than most 'the tragic sense of life' as Douglas Murray puts it. They know that, if not defended vigorously, everything one takes for granted can be swept away in a very short space of time. Murray also attributes to this the very different attitudes to immigration of western and eastern Europeans. Former Soviet Bloc countries understand that freedom and safety are precious and fragile, while western Europeans three generations removed from WWII have forgotten and think they are forever.

    We may one day regret we were so much more 'mature' than Israel.
    Last edited by Burney; 05-15-2018 at 10:36 AM.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Israelis understand rather better than most 'the tragic sense of life' as Douglas Murray puts it. They know that, if not defended vigorously, everything one takes for granted can be swept away in a very short space of time. Murray also attributes this to the very different attitudes to immigration of western and eastern Europeans. Former Soviet Bloc countries understand that freedom and safety are precious and fragile, while western Europeans three generations removed from WWII have forgotten and think they are forever.

    We may one day regret we were so much more 'mature' than Israel.
    and with the weapons at Trump's disposal we may very soon regret a lack of maturity.

    I dont think conflating foreign policy with immigration is terribly helpful here, although I do get the point you are making (bloody Islamophobe!)

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