Andrew Neil and Squeaking Little Shít Owen Jones should settle this like men.

[Monty92]

Firstly, throughout this entire conversation I have not called either of you racist. I have consistently drawn a comparison between prejudice based on race (the anti semitism B accuses Labour of) and prejudice based on faith (the two of you and your muslim baiting). That should make it clearI am not calling you racist- I am however equating your faith-based prejudice with a race-based one. This isnt the same thing.

Secondly, your insistence that it is purely the faith that you despise is horse****. You admit yourself it is the behaviours you despise (the ghettos, therape gangs, etc). These are the behaviours of individuals. Throughout all of our conversations you have held the line that the religion itself, and alone, is responsible for these behaviours. this is the device you both use to justify your prejudice- I dont hate people, I hate their beliefs. It hinges on you proving that the religion is responsible for how these people behave, flagrantlydisregarding the fact that billions of Muslims around the globe believe the same thing and don't behave this way.

B ridicules the notion that anyone could hate judaism, and insists that they simply hate jews- it simply must be the case. they couldnt possibly hate Israel, they couldn't possibly have an issue with US-led zionism, they couldn't possibly have faith-based objections. It is purely andsimply the hatred of individuals based on race and is therefore unacceptable.

I get your objections, I understand why you both think the way you do. But you are applying a double standard here in chucking stones at othersand the distinction, and the argument that separates the individual from heir belief is almost unbearably tenuous.

Firstly, you are wrong, I have never said that religion alone is responsible for all negative behaviour by Muslims. I could talk to you plenty about any number of contributing factors including the justifications of choice for most leftist apologists for acts of terrorism such as western foreign policy and mental illness (both of which I think can often be factors to some degree).

Secondly,I didn't say you accused us of being racist (how could I, when Islam is not a race?). But your accusation of us being inherently discriminatory towards Muslims as individuals is not much better and no more justified.

As I said, there is nothing intrinsically discriminatory about stating that things would have been better if no Muslim had ever come to the UK and it is only our ingrained sensitivity about matters of religion and race that makes it sound contentious to our ears (and i agree it certainly sounds contentious).

And no, I would certainly never casually say it to a Muslim because that would make me a giant c[U]nt. What I should be able to do, however, is say it in the spirit of open conversation without someone like you accusing me of judging every individual Muslim by the same standards as I do the worst kind of Muslim.

Let's be honest, if you had evidence that one Muslim refugee out of a million was going to murder you or your family, and had the choice of whether to let them all in, or none of them, you would soon find yourself being "discriminatory" too.

[Peter]

If what they believe leads directly and undeniably to toxic behaviours - as Islam undoubtedly does - I will attack the cause rather than just bemoan the symptom.

So it isnt their beliefs that you despise- it is their behaviours and YOUR belief that their beliefs are the cause of them.

[Peter]

Firstly, you are wrong, I have never said that religion alone is responsible for all negative behaviour by Muslims. I could talk to you plenty about any number of contributing factors including the justifications of choice for most leftist apologists for acts of terrorism such as western foreign policy and mental illness (both of which I think can often be factors to some degree).

Secondly,I didn't say you accused us of being racist (how could I, when Islam is not a race?). But your accusation of us being inherently discriminatory towards Muslims as individuals is not much better and no more justified.

As I said, there is nothing intrinsically discriminatory about stating that things would have been better if no Muslim had ever come to the UK and it is only our ingrained sensitivity about matters of religion and race that makes it sound contentious to our ears (and i agree it certainly sounds contentious).

And no, I would certainly never casually say it to a Muslim because that would make me a giant c[U]nt. What I should be able to do, however, is say it in the spirit of open conversation without someone like you accusing me of judging every individual Muslim by the same standards as I do the worst kind of Muslim.

Let's be honest, if you had evidence that one Muslim refugee out of a million was going to murder you or your family, and had the choice of whether to let them all in, or none of them, you would soon find yourself being "discriminatory" too.

I do apologise. when you said it was unhelpful that people like me bandyabout words like racism I thought you were suggesting I was, you know, bandying about words like racism. I must have misunderstood that- silly old me.

Nor have I said that either of you hate every muslim. My original point was a contrast between B's horror at anti-semitism and how he squared that with his own 'reservations' regarding muslims. I do take issue with the attempt to distance yourselves from actual muslim people by claiming it is merely the belief you dont like. As evidenced elsewhere in the thread, this is not the case. You yourself say above that it is the behaviours you despise and your belief that Islam is the cause of them. Above you also say it isn't the only cause (but curiously the only one you ever seem to attack).

I have never used the word inherent with regards to either of you. I have simply accused you of being anti-muslim. As you know, we agree entirely that the behaviours are unacceptable. Where we disagree is in our willingness to castigate the entire religion.

you yourself said recently that you didn't think the Labour Party was genuinely anti-semitic, down to actually hating individual jews. B doesnt seem to agree, hence this entire thread. For the record, I find it rather offensive and absurd that one form of prejudice is horrific and personal, the other thoroughly justified, acceptable and restricted to a mere belief system.

[Sir C]

I do apologise. when you said it was unhelpful that people like me bandyabout words like racism I thought you were suggesting I was, you know, bandying about words like racism. I must have misunderstood that- silly old me.

Nor have I said that either of you hate every muslim. My original point was a contrast between B's horror at anti-semitism and how he squared that with his own 'reservations' regarding muslims. I do take issue with the attempt to distance yourselves from actual muslim people by claiming it is merely the belief you dont like. As evidenced elsewhere in the thread, this is not the case. You yourself say above that it is the behaviours you despise and your belief that Islam is the cause of them. Above you also say it isn't the only cause (but curiously the only one you ever seem to attack).

I have never used the word inherent with regards to either of you. I have simply accused you of being anti-muslim. As you know, we agree entirely that the behaviours are unacceptable. Where we disagree is in our willingness to castigate the entire religion.

you yourself said recently that you didn't think the Labour Party was genuinely anti-semitic, down to actually hating individual jews. B doesnt seem to agree, hence this entire thread. For the record, I find it rather offensive and absurd that one form of prejudice is horrific and personal, the other thoroughly justified, acceptable and restricted to a mere belief system.

Yes, but what have you got against jews?

[Peter]

Yes, but what have you got against jews?

Individual jews? Nothing, I like them.

Its those ****ing Rothschild zionists I can't stand. Lizards, the lot of them.

Burney loves them.

[Sir C]

Individual jews? Nothing, I like them.

Its those ****ing Rothschild zionists I can't stand. Lizards, the lot of them.

Burney loves them.

They're conspirassing against Our Jeremy, you know.

[Peter]

They're conspirassing against Our Jeremy, you know.

Isnt everyone?

[Burney]

I do apologise. when you said it was unhelpful that people like me bandyabout words like racism I thought you were suggesting I was, you know, bandying about words like racism. I must have misunderstood that- silly old me.

Nor have I said that either of you hate every muslim. My original point was a contrast between B's horror at anti-semitism and how he squared that with his own 'reservations' regarding muslims. I do take issue with the attempt to distance yourselves from actual muslim people by claiming it is merely the belief you dont like. As evidenced elsewhere in the thread, this is not the case. You yourself say above that it is the behaviours you despise and your belief that Islam is the cause of them. Above you also say it isn't the only cause (but curiously the only one you ever seem to attack).

I have never used the word inherent with regards to either of you. I have simply accused you of being anti-muslim. As you know, we agree entirely that the behaviours are unacceptable. Where we disagree is in our willingness to castigate the entire religion.

you yourself said recently that you didn't think the Labour Party was genuinely anti-semitic, down to actually hating individual jews. B doesnt seem to agree, hence this entire thread. For the record, I find it rather offensive and absurd that one form of prejudice is horrific and personal, the other thoroughly justified, acceptable and restricted to a mere belief system.

Since when has anti-semitism been about hating individual Jews? 6 Million Jews didn't get chucked in the ovens because everyone hated Mrs Rothstein, ffs! 'The Jews' are an idea to anti-semites: a malign force that operates hidden levers of power and cause us all to pander to them. The modern left has adopted the sophistry of 'zionist', of course, but it's the same damn thing. And, as I said at the beginning of all this, the fact that the left gets so angry about Israel and not other examples of international injustice is nothing to do with feeling extra-sorry for the Palestinians and everything to do with the fact that Israel is a Jewish state.

[Peter]

Since when has anti-semitism been about hating individual Jews? 6 Million Jews didn't get chucked in the ovens because everyone hated Mrs Rothstein, ffs! 'The Jews' are an idea to anti-semites: a malign force that operates hidden levers of power and cause us all to pander to them. The modern left has adopted the sophistry of 'zionist', of course, but it's the same damn thing. And, as I said at the beginning of all this, the fact that the left gets so angry about Israel and not other examples of international injustice is nothing to do with feeling extra-sorry for the Palestinians and everything to do with the fact that Israel is a Jewish state.

I was referring to actually hating jewish people, rather than the idea or notion of 'the jew' as you put it. I wasn't attempting to blame the Labour Party's stance on somebody not liking Woody Allen.

Is it possible to be opposed the to the state of Israel without being anti-semitic? Or is this mere sophistry?

[Burney]

I was referring to actually hating jewish people, rather than the idea or notion of 'the jew' as you put it. I wasn't attempting to blame the Labour Party's stance on somebody not liking Woody Allen.

Is it possible to be opposed the to the state of Israel without being anti-semitic? Or is this mere sophistry?

Think about what it actually means to be ‘opposed to the state of Israel’. To oppose the very existence of a defensible homeland for a people who in living memory have suffered the deliberate near-extermination of their race from the European continent. That should give you your answer.