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Thread: You do realise that it's currently the equivalent of October 1914

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    The Donald has realised - as Lord Palmerston did 150 years before him - that "The policy and practice of the Russian Government has always been to push forward its encroachments as fast and as far as the apathy or want of firmness of other Governments would allow it to go, but always to stop and retire when it met with decided resistance and then to wait for the next favourable opportunity."
    Which is also, pretty much to the letter, Hitler's foreign policy up until 1939. Its just that he didnt actually meet any resistance until then....

    It isnt a bad description of everyone's foreign policy......

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    The Donald has realised - as Lord Palmerston did 150 years before him - that "The policy and practice of the Russian Government has always been to push forward its encroachments as fast and as far as the apathy or want of firmness of other Governments would allow it to go, but always to stop and retire when it met with decided resistance and then to wait for the next favourable opportunity."
    So we need to bring Putin to his knees just like we did the USSR?*

    * Economically speaking, at least.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    I think he was thinking ahead. He wanted greater cooperation with Japan as he saw them as a potential help against the Soviet Union at some point. More importantly, he believed, correctly, that the USA would now inevitably enter the war and declare war on Germany. Most leaders prefer that, to show they were provoked. Hitler didnt give a fuclk and wanted to get in there first, partly to show Japan he was serious.

    THis wasnt his big mistake, not really. THat was invading the Soviet Union in June. Had he done that in March/april he might have had a slight of establishing control and a firm base before winter fell. Doing it in June meant that Stalin simply needed to pull back and wait.

    Once the tide turned in the eastern war Hitler was dead and buried.
    Only a fool could have imagined the Japanese would be in a position to help with Russia once they had triggered war with the mightiest economy on earth. Besides, the Russians were able to work out in winter 1941 that the Japs had no plans to attack Russia (allowing them to transfer huge numbers of troops from Siberia to the Moscow front and throw the Germans back), so how come their allies the Germans weren't privy to the same information?
    And sure, war between Germany and the US was inevitable in the long run, but to trigger it when he didn't have to was still remarkably hubristic. Not least because it ensured the supply of massive, war-winning amounts of food and materiel to the Russians by the US that might otherwise not have happened so early.

    As far as Russia was concerned, I think invading at all with the notion of conquering the whole bloody place was the real mistake. The Russians fighting on home soil can always trade space and lives for time and still be able to come back at you. Germany catastrophically underestimated the Russian capacity to resist - particularly in what was in effect a war of annihilation. Germany never had the resources to fight such a war to a successful conclusion.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    So we need to bring Putin to his knees just like we did the USSR?*

    * Economically speaking, at least.
    Not really. He isn't a serious global threat in the sense that the USSR was. He's simply a posturing strong man type who needs to be made to wind his fvcking neck in.

    Never forget when talking about Russia and its capabilities that - for all its geographical size - Russia's economy is less than half the size of the UK's. Russia's economic capacity for doing anything much more than posturing in military terms is virtually zero.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir C View Post
    The radiation stuff is all lefty propaganda, apparently. I read about it a couple of years ago. According to this random article on the internet, if the effects of radiation were as severe as we are led to believe, about half a million people would have died of cancer in the years following Chernobyl. The actual number of cases was about 17. These numbers may not be 100% accurate, but you get the gist.
    Well, sure, but you get a lot of two-headed birds within the perimeter.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Only a fool could have imagined the Japanese would be in a position to help with Russia once they had triggered war with the mightiest economy on earth. Besides, the Russians were able to work out in winter 1941 that the Japs had no plans to attack Russia (allowing them to transfer huge numbers of troops from Siberia to the Moscow front and throw the Germans back), so how come their allies the Germans weren't privy to the same information?
    And sure, war between Germany and the US was inevitable in the long run, but to trigger it when he didn't have to was still remarkably hubristic. Not least because it ensured the supply of massive, war-winning amounts of food and materiel to the Russians by the US that might otherwise not have happened so early.

    As far as Russia was concerned, I think invading at all with the notion of conquering the whole bloody place was the real mistake. The Russians fighting on home soil can always trade space and lives for time and still be able to come back at you. Germany catastrophically underestimated the Russian capacity to resist - particularly in what was in effect a war of annihilation. Germany never had the resources to fight such a war to a successful conclusion.
    Quite simply, he didnt have the numbers to hold gains in the East and defend the Western front against what was undoubtedly coming at some point. Alliance with the Soviet Union was the only plausible route to victory here but ideologygotin the way of that. In no way could he have justified that in he long term. THe entire premise demanded a mass of territorial gains in the East, and not just Poland and their ilk.

    In effect, he had to attack Russia and you are right, it had to be a war of annihilation which was never, ever going to happen. He massively underestimated the resolve of the russian soldier.

    His view of how Japan could help is an odd one. Aside from assistance to the east of Russia they could help in two ways- distract/cripple the US navy to delay or prevent the opening of a western front, and something similar towards the British in the East, further crippling our resource and resolve. They tried both, with some success, but only to delay. THat kind of assistance required totalvictoryin Russia which never came. To be fair, they got closer than most.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Not really. He isn't a serious global threat in the sense that the USSR was. He's simply a posturing strong man type who needs to be made to wind his fvcking neck in.

    Never forget when talking about Russia and its capabilities that - for all its geographical size - Russia's economy is less than half the size of the UK's. Russia's economic capacity for doing anything much more than posturing in military terms is virtually zero.
    THat is pretty much what Hitler said in 1941

    Never attack the Russians. Never ends well......

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Which is also, pretty much to the letter, Hitler's foreign policy up until 1939. Its just that he didnt actually meet any resistance until then....

    It isnt a bad description of everyone's foreign policy......
    Which, of course, is an endorsement of the idea of pushing back against Putin as Trump is doing and as Obama singularly failed to do.

    It's certainly a description of the foreign policy of expansionist powers. There aren't many such powers left, however - at least in the West. Russia has always been that sort of power because it perceives itself as having a sphere of influence and control far beyond its borders that includes nebulous ethnic (ie Slavic) and religious (ie Orthodox) components. In addition, being where it is, Russia has always had a massive chip on its shoulder because it is seen (justifiably) as backward and uncivilised by its western European neighbours. This inferiority complex has made it aggressive in its dealings with those neighbours and its relationships with them uncomfortable.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    THat is pretty much what Hitler said in 1941

    Never attack the Russians. Never ends well......
    Oh, never invade Russia with the intention of defeating it utterly. That is madness. However, it's perfectly possible to fight local wars with limited objectives with Russia (Crimea, Russo-Japanese War, etc, etc) and win. Plus, of course, the Russian home record is pretty decent (if Pyrrhic), but their away record is absolutely shocking.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Oh, never invade Russia with the intention of defeating it utterly. That is madness. However, it's perfectly possible to fight local wars with limited objectives with Russia (Crimea, Russo-Japanese War, etc, etc) and win. Plus, of course, the Russian home record is pretty decent (if Pyrrhic), but their away record is absolutely shocking.
    In light of our match on Thursday, this has me worried

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