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Thread: Just in case anyone was on the fence about whether vegans are insane...

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by World's End Stella View Post
    I think that's the point, though. There is only one valid reason to not eat meat, because you don't like the taste.

    As soon as it becomes more than that it becomes an ideology of some kind. And at that point it becomes irritating and pathetic and, more importantly, intellectually indefensible.
    My ex was a veggie because she didn't like the taste of meat, she'd happily still cook me food with meat in it.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Monty92 View Post
    There is some justification in singling out animals for especial concern. Yes, by acquiring modern luxuries we are complicit in the suffering of other humans. But everyone agrees that this is sub-optimal and it would be better if we could have such luxuries without any human suffering - and significant efforts (both intentional and inadvertent) are made to move closer to this ambition (see the numbers who have been pulled out of poverty by capitalism over the past 100 years). This consensus is far more ingrained than, say, the belief that it would be better if we could enjoy a KFC without some chickens having suffered a horrific existence, even if we all know that to also be true.

    So there is some requirement to redress the balance. Not to shift focus away from humans to animals, or to make us think it's just as bad for animasl to suffer as humans (which it is obviously not), but to shift the dial of our ethical framework to *some extent* in order to reduce suffering among animals.
    But the point is that to do something about the one thing while demonstrably not doing something about the other is morally dubious to say the least. It is quite possible to - for instance - give up your mobile phone, not drive a car, not travel by aeroplane, refuse to transact with morally questionable businesses, etc, etc. However, those choices are likely to have negative professional and financial consequences, so most people eschew them.
    To me, a vegan or vegetarian is someone who has decided to publicly announce themselves as a moral being in a world replete with injustice, suffering and misery and - rather than choosing to take a difficult stand - has chosen the easy one of just not eating animals. That strikes me as a fairly huge cop-out and tells me the person isn't actually serious about morality, merely posing.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    But the point is that to do something about the one thing while demonstrably not doing something about the other is morally dubious to say the least. It is quite possible to - for instance - give up your mobile phone, not drive a car, not travel by aeroplane, refuse to transact with morally questionable businesses, etc, etc. However, those choices are likely to have negative professional and financial consequences, so most people eschew them.
    To me, a vegan or vegetarian is someone who has decided to publicly announce themselves as a moral being in a world replete with injustice, suffering and misery and - rather than choosing to take a difficult stand - has chosen the easy one of just not eating animals. That strikes me as a fairly huge cop-out and tells me the person isn't actually serious about morality, merely posing.
    Perhaps they just don't want to eat meat, dude. I've known several people who didn't eat meat and didn't make a fuss about it. They certainly weren't posing.

    This poseur to whom you object - who exactly is he? He's not a man made of straw, perchance?

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by PSRB View Post
    My ex was a veggie because she didn't like the taste of meat, she'd happily still cook me food with meat in it.
    been in that situation too, although she also ate fish so not really properly veggie

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir C View Post
    Perhaps they just don't want to eat meat, dude. I've known several people who didn't eat meat and didn't make a fuss about it. They certainly weren't posing.

    This poseur to whom you object - who exactly is he? He's not a man made of straw, perchance?
    We were talking specifically about the ideological vegan or vegetarian. You surely don't deny such a beast exists?

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by World's End Stella View Post
    I insist you read my posts properly before you reply, Peter.

    I specifically said that not eating meat was intellectually indefensible only once it became an ideology.
    What you actually said was that the only valid reason was not liking the taste. I was pointing out that it was entirely possible to have reasons for not wanting to eat meat, beyond not liking the taste, without forming an ideology or boring everyone to tears.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    But the point is that to do something about the one thing while demonstrably not doing something about the other is morally dubious to say the least. It is quite possible to - for instance - give up your mobile phone, not drive a car, not travel by aeroplane, refuse to transact with morally questionable businesses, etc, etc. However, those choices are likely to have negative professional and financial consequences, so most people eschew them.
    To me, a vegan or vegetarian is someone who has decided to publicly announce themselves as a moral being in a world replete with injustice, suffering and misery and - rather than choosing to take a difficult stand - has chosen the easy one of just not eating animals. That strikes me as a fairly huge cop-out and tells me the person isn't actually serious about morality, merely posing.
    Oh we can all have contempt for the overt posing/posturing/moral grand-standing aspect of veganism and vegetarianism. But from a purely utilitarian point of view, there is logic behind it all.

    Quite simply, if we can all agree that the worst possible thing is for all sentient beings to experience the maximum suffering, then to reduce that suffering by any margin is a desirable outcome. If that can be achieved while being morally inconsistent, smug, experiencing cognitive dissonance or any number of other unattractive human traits, then it is still arguably worthwhile.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    We were talking specifically about the ideological vegan or vegetarian. You surely don't deny such a beast exists?
    Forgive me, I thought your condemnation was more all-encompassing. The ideological vegetable-botherer is a species with whom I have been intimately familiar and would tend to classify as ranging from the selfish virtue signaller to the actually mentally ill. The ones who feed their cats a vegan diet are espsecially worthy of a good kicking.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    We were talking specifically about the ideological vegan or vegetarian. You surely don't deny such a beast exists?
    There is a worrying tension in your argument here b. You seem to be suggesting that it is morally bankrupt to tackle one problem without tackling all the others. As though giving money to one charity is wrong unless you give to them all. This is remarkably unfair.

    We all prioritise what we choose to care about, what we choose to act on. If your issue is vegans announcing themselves as pure and superior beings, I agree wholeheartedly.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    There is a worrying tension in your argument here b. You seem to be suggesting that it is morally bankrupt to tackle one problem without tackling all the others. As though giving money to one charity is wrong unless you give to them all. This is remarkably unfair.

    We all prioritise what we choose to care about, what we choose to act on. If your issue is vegans announcing themselves as pure and superior beings, I agree wholeheartedly.
    Yes, this is a more concise version of my point. Mazeltovs.

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