Just in case anyone was on the fence about whether vegans are insane...

[Burney]

Firstly (and this is also a response to Monty) it is ridiculous to suggest that any behaviour deemed self sacrificial or ethical implies a sense of moral superiority. It may carry with it a sense of self satisfaction but that is hardly the same thing. Nor is how one may feel and how one chooses to express it the same thing. I dont care what you eat any more than I care what your favourite drink is, or that you have preference for anal sex at Office parties.

The fact that plenty of vegans feel a sense of superiority is undeniable but I am afraid that is entirely their fault. It is not a natural result.

It is a bit ludicrous present centuries of progress as the sole result of intensive farming. How exactly has that helped the huge swathes of India that are exclusively vegetarian? How has it helped in many other countries where intensive farming isnt used? How is the consumption of cheap meat increasing life expectancy?

Cheap food has helped in some parts of the world but is also contributing to health crises in other parts- see obesity in the USA and increasingly here in Britain- the prevalence of diabetes, heart disease, cholesterol and high blood pressure. It isnt all a glorious bed of life-giving tenderloin.

And finally, our moral structure is not predicated on the prioritisation of human beings. The example of the charity shows you havent actually changed your stance from what I suspected originally- that there must be moral equivalence across all your activities else all are rendered meaningless.

You're wriggling here. Once morality is brought into the question of food consumption - and there can be little doubt that many people who choose vegetarianism do so for moral reasons - there is the implied construction of a moral hierarchy with vegans at the top, vegetarians underneath them and all us ghastly carnivores at the bottom. On that basis, it's not unreasonable for carnivores to perceive some moral slight.

As to intensive farming, it is undeniably the best way to ensure not merely enough food to keep everyone alive, but to provide a surplus. That is why the Chinese are adopting it at a rate of knots (see their purchase of pig sperm from us a few years back). The Indians are getting richer, but I hardly think anyone would present them as a good example of how to keep one's population fed.

Meat and animal fats have been conclusively shown not to be a factor in increased obesity. Sugar has been far more damaging in that respect.

And I clearly demonstrated that our moral hierarchy is clearly based on prioritising humans over animals. Someone who kills a human is not regarded in the same way as someone who kills an animal and neither should they be. To suggest otherwise is absurd.

Finally, it wasn't an office party, it was an awards ceremony. And it wasn't my preference, it was hers.

[Pokster]

One may consider one's own choice to be morally superior, by definition. That is NOT the same as developing an ideology to present to the world that revolves around you being better than everyone else.

For example, one may believe this choice to be superior while other remain inferior. One may believe that we are all entitled to an opinion on this and everything else. One may believe in the sheer delight of dietary choice and marvel at man's capacity to choose for himself.

Either that or Berni is a **** for believing himself superior to a rapist.

Surely that depends what else Berni does in the rest of his life... he might be a mass murderer for all we know so would he still be morally superior to a rapist???

[Ash]

If the odd pig or chicken got a reprieve because of me, good luck to them

Better to have lived and to have been eaten, than never to have lived at all.

This probably doesn't apply to factory chickens, but does for most farm animals who don't have a bad life imo, albeit a little truncated. If we didn't eat them, there'd be no sheep on the fells to cut the grass and keep them beautiful.

[Peter]

You're wriggling here. Once morality is brought into the question of food consumption - and there can be little doubt that many people who choose vegetarianism do so for moral reasons - there is the implied construction of a moral hierarchy with vegans at the top, vegetarians underneath them and all us ghastly carnivores at the bottom. On that basis, it's not unreasonable for carnivores to perceive some moral slight.

As to intensive farming, it is undeniably the best way to ensure not merely enough food to keep everyone alive, but to provide a surplus. That is why the Chinese are adopting it at a rate of knots (see their purchase of pig sperm from us a few years back). The Indians are getting richer, but I hardly think anyone would present them as a good example of how to keep one's population fed.

Meat and animal fats have been conclusively shown not to be a factor in increased obesity. Sugar has been far more damaging in that respect.

And I clearly demonstrated that our moral hierarchy is clearly based on prioritising humans over animals. Someone who kills a human is not regarded in the same way as someone who kills an animal and neither should they be. To suggest otherwise is absurd.

Finally, it wasn't an office party, it was an awards ceremony. And it wasn't my preference, it was hers.

I am not denying it is a common feeling among vegans. I am suggesting it is their fault and is not implicit. One may consider one's moral choice in one sphere to be superior to other choices- why else would one make such a moral choice?- but it isnt the same as feeling or expressing a sense of superiority.

Indeed, in this conversation it is you (the carnist) suggesting that me (the vegan) is making an immoral choice. How is THAT for a sense of superiority?

The unspoken issue here is that all animal lovers feel a degree of guilty for eating meat which is why most of us are happy to be as divorced from the process as possible. When confronted with a vegan who has made a choice to sacrificing pleasures we feel inferior. That's you, b. Don't blame me and my other happy, flappy, rainbow eating vegan chums

Finally, awards ceremony or not, anal sex is anal sex.

[Peter]

Better to have lived and to have been eaten, than never to have lived at all.

This probably doesn't apply to factory chickens, but does for most farm animals who don't have a bad life imo, albeit a little truncated. If we didn't eat them, there'd be no sheep on the fells to cut the grass and keep them beautiful.

Truncated

Lovely way of putting it

[Burney]

I am not denying it is a common feeling among vegans. I am suggesting it is their fault and is not implicit. One may consider one's moral choice in one sphere to be superior to other choices- why else would one make such a moral choice?- but it isnt the same as feeling or expressing a sense of superiority.

Indeed, in this conversation it is you (the carnist) suggesting that me (the vegan) is making an immoral choice. How is THAT for a sense of superiority?

The unspoken issue here is that all animal lovers feel a degree of guilty for eating meat which is why most of us are happy to be as divorced from the process as possible. When confronted with a vegan who has made a choice to sacrificing pleasures we feel inferior. That's you, b. Don't blame me and my other happy, flappy, rainbow eating vegan chums

Finally, awards ceremony or not, anal sex is anal sex.

No, you see this is where you're wrong. By virtue of mankind's remarkable (and entirely necessary) capacity for cognitive dissonance, we have historically shown ourselves to be quite capable of loving our cats or dogs while being perfectly happy to go foxhunting or watch a bullfight and then tuck into a nice lump of foie gras followed by a rare steak. I would argue that this is the natural way of things and that our cranky, latter-day namby-pamby concerns about animal welfare are a very modern by-product of the non-conformist conscience and general leftism.

I can put my hand on my heart and tell you that I honestly do not really give a flying fück about the animals I eat beyond the fact that they taste good. What is more, I consider this to be a perfectly normal, sane and sensible way to think.

[Peter]

No, you see this is where you're wrong. By virtue of mankind's remarkable (and entirely necessary) capacity for cognitive dissonance, we have historically shown ourselves to be quite capable of loving our cats or dogs while being perfectly happy to go foxhunting or watch a bullfight and then tuck into a nice lump of foie gras followed by a rare steak. I would argue that this is the natural way of things and that our cranky, latter-day namby-pamby concerns about animal welfare are a very modern by-product of the non-conformist conscience and general leftism.

I can put my hand on my heart and tell you that I honestly do not really give a flying fück about the animals I eat beyond the fact that they taste good. What is more, I consider this to be a perfectly normal, sane and sensible way to think.

I am sure you do, b. I was talking about animal lovers. That is animal lovers, not pet lovers.

What I am less clear about is why you appear so animated by the dietary choices of other humans. You found it so hard to accept my choice that you felt the need to invent an entire relationship with a lithe young sex maniac in order to explain my actions. You even described her buttocks- there is that anal fixation 'rearing' its head again

[Burney]

I am sure you do, b. I was talking about animal lovers. That is animal lovers, not pet lovers.

What I am less clear about is why you appear so animated by the dietary choices of other humans. You found it so hard to accept my choice that you felt the need to invent an entire relationship with a lithe young sex maniac in order to explain my actions. You even described her buttocks- there is that anal fixation 'rearing' its head again

Oh, I don't really believe in animal lovers. They're just anthropomorphic sentimentalists.

And what I find hard to fathom is the tendency to self-harm. It's the modern-day mortification of the flesh. In the old days, you'd have been wearing a hair shirt.