So there seems to be some debate about how much we should pay as part of Brexit

[Burney]

Nationalism was at the heart of every problem in Europe for the century that preceded WW2. THe crumbling of great empires and the states that replaced them on the continent created a fundamental shift in the balance of European influence, most notably with the Gerries. Yes, it is unfair to blame the idea of the nation state for this as the balance of european power had to be restructured as the continental empires crumbled. Nevertheless, cooperation in europe in the aftermath was important and would have felt so.

Quite frankly, the attempts of the remain campaign to nod in the direction of european security and safety in defence of the EU was laughable. At this stage, the idea of Germans marching into France is as laughable as the idea that the EU would be able to prevent it happening.

So what is the real purpose of the EU? As Ash says, cheap labour and comfy regs for businesses to prowl the continent with greater ease. For us it also means being the natural home for those from the poorest parts of the Union.

From our point of view, bit of a **** deal.

Europe's problem has always been very simple: a lot of different people who don't much like one another crammed into a relatively small continent and competing for resources. If it isn't nationalism, it's ideology. If it isn't ideology, it'll be religion or ethnicity. if it isn't nations vs nations, it's been city states vs city states or dukedoms vs dukedoms. The only things that've stopped people killing one another in Europe in the last 70 years have been economic and material exhaustion, the threat of nuclear annihilation and a relative torpor induced by living cosily under NATO's nuclear umbrella. Dismantling the nation state (assuming it's even possible, which I doubt) will make fück all difference to anything.

[Peter]

The Russians fought in the Great Patriotic War, rather than WWII.

Its amazing how patriotic one can feel when 3 million heavily armed germans turn up looking to wipe you and yours off the face of the earth.

In addition, I wouldn't **** with the Russians. Bloody lunatics.

[Burney]

A Europe with an artificially un-mighty Germany in it was even less safe. The story from unification to surrender in 1945 was one of Germany finding its rightful place as a major european power and economy.

Italian nationalism was pretty destabilising, as were the artificial nation states imposed at Versailles that created such easy prey for Hitler.

the problem is that we never wanted this to be our problem. We only ever got dragged in to sort it out and, from day to day, wanted nothing to do with them. We still dont.

Arguably the right thing to do was never join. Or at the very least, to leave before Maastricht.

Oddly enough, Europe's never been more peaceful than when Germany was divided. No sooner does Germany reunify than Yugoslavia kicks off in no small part because that fat-headed cünt Helmut Kohl - in a moment of post-unification hubris - unilaterally decided to recognise Croatia and Slovenia.

The Cold War - for all its faults - kept everything nice and stable.

And yes, we'd love to leave well enough alone, but long experience tells us that if we don't at least keep a watching eye on our European cousins, sooner or later they'll come after us and have to be slapped.

[Peter]

Oddly enough, Europe's never been more peaceful than when Germany was divided. No sooner does Germany reunify than Yugoslavia kicks off in no small part because that fat-headed cünt Helmut Kohl - in a moment of post-unification hubris - unilaterally decided to recognise Croatia and Slovenia.

The Cold War - for all its faults - kept everything nice and stable.

And yes, we'd love to leave well enough alone, but long experience tells us that if we don't at least keep a watching eye on our European cousins, sooner or later they'll come after us and have to be slapped.

Nah, that's all over and done with. Its all about the islamists these days, b. THe Gerries are yesterday's news.

[Burney]

Nah, that's all over and done with. Its all about the islamists these days, b. THe Gerries are yesterday's news.

Yes, because there's no precedent for a Germany that feels it faces a cultural and ethnic threat getting uppity, is there?

[Peter]

Yes, because there's no precedent for a Germany that feels it faces a cultural and ethnic threat getting uppity, is there?

Yeah, but they wont be getting uppity with us, will they. If they want to take on the mad Muslimists you would be right behind them wouldn't you?

Anyway, they wont do it.

[redgunamo]

Yes, because there's no precedent for a Germany that feels it faces a cultural and ethnic threat getting uppity, is there?

Right. This morning, the wife fed my special steak and kidney pie filling to my hounds while I wasn't looking. Lying cow says she presumed it was meant for them on account of the smell.

[Burney]

Yeah, but they wont be getting uppity with us, will they. If they want to take on the mad Muslimists you would be right behind them wouldn't you?

Anyway, they wont do it.

No, they won't. They're all pussies, these days. Ripe for the plucking by our mad Allan friends.

[Burney]

Right. This morning, the wife fed my special steak and kidney pie filling to my hounds while I wasn't looking. Lying cow says she presumed it was meant for them on account of the smell.

How dare she? These people boil sausages, ffs! The smell indeed!

[redgunamo]

How dare she? These people boil sausages, ffs! The smell indeed!

Exactly. It's quite obviously the beginning of a campaign.