So a left wing politician dares to point out that

[Sir C]

I want Islam to lighten the **** up and have a beer, metaphorically.

Good advice for anyone.

I care nothing for the religion itself, nor any other religion. I find them equally daft.

There you have it. You understand, I hope, that it was your generation of leftists who discarded the religion which provided us with a ready-made, robust moral framework, and replaced it with... a vacuum, into which rolled the twin evils of cultural Marxism and Islam whihc are destroying our society.

[redgunamo]

I want Islam to lighten the **** up and have a beer, metaphorically.

Good advice for anyone.

I care nothing for the religion itself, nor any other religion. I find them equally daft.

I think you're incorrigible, you'll never learn

[redgunamo]

ty r. When I asked her her opinion of you she just told me you've got a huge knob.

I'm surprised she could tell, to be honest.

[Monty92]

I want Islam to lighten the **** up and have a beer, metaphorically.

Good advice for anyone.

I care nothing for the religion itself, nor any other religion. I find them equally daft.

I know that. I just wondered if you think it necessary for Islam to secularise to make the progress you acknowledge needs to be made. You seem to think we are already on a path towards a better Islam (i.e. a less devoutly practised Islam) though you beat around the bush of saying it by refusing to directly acknowledge the role of religion in the problems we see.

But that's fine, that's your perogative and I'm sure your motives are good, since you're not normally motivated by political correctness.

My question is whether your course of action is likely to work. I simply don't see how it can in a globalised world in which everyone who is in a position to do something about the problem, or is simply invested in solving this problem, is in one way of another stymied from doing so.

Am I right in saying that you believe Muslims must be on the frontline of reform? If so, are you aware quite how hard it is for Muslims to do this, and that the barriers to them doing so are erected by everyone, from other muslims, to politicians, to progressives?

[World's End Stella]

Hmmm... well, of course, the holy books themselves have not been amended in any way. This neutering you speak is of is our modern understanding of the literal passages and our shared belief in how they should shape our behaviour.

In other words, our interpretation of the original scripture. This is the very point I was making to you last week and that you described as a red herring. That a religion can be separated from its original incarnation. And by definition, from any ghastly future *******isation of it.

So when the KKK lynch black people the world is able to separate this from global christianity, even though the clowns are claiming to do it in the name of Christ.

The situation with Islam is the same but for some reason you refuse to accept that it has already happened. You still wish to blame Islam for everything done in its name and resist any argument regarding interpretation as a red herring or a straw man.

I am happy to sit here and agree that some muslin men in britain clearly have an appalling attitude to young, white women and a very small minority do horrific things to them. I would also agree that we are reluctant to admit this because of fears about being labelled racist. I would also agree that the communities these men stem from should be concerned by this and should tackle it in some way.

What I refuse to do is partially absolve these ****s by believing that their religion told them to do it. **** that.

I have heard many members of the KKK or similar groups spout their garbage over the years, I don't recall any of them ever claiming that the bible was their justification. Every member of ISIS I have ever heard speak claims that Islam and the Koran is their justification, without exception.

And my point isn't so much that Islam is to blame, more that Islam must therefore be part of the solution. This then goes back to community leaders, mosques, imams etc having to be involved. Blaming only the individuals involved is too easy and won't solve the problem.

[Peter]

I know that. I just wondered if you think it necessary for Islam to secularise to make the progress you acknowledge needs to be made. You seem to think we are already on a path towards a better Islam (i.e. a less devoutly practised Islam) though you beat around the bush of saying it by refusing to directly acknowledge the role of religion in the problems we see.

But that's fine, that's your perogative and I'm sure your motives are good, since you're not normally motivated by political correctness.

My question is whether your course of action is likely to work. I simply don't see how it can in a globalised world in which everyone who is in a position to do something about the problem, or is simply invested in solving this problem, is in one way of another stymied from doing so.

Am I right in saying that you believe Muslims must be on the frontline of reform? If so, are you aware quite how hard it is for Muslims to do this, and that the barriers to them doing so are erected by everyone, from other muslims, to politicians, to progressives?

Yes, of course it does. and it has more work to do than most, and it has to come from them.

However....the fact that plenty of muslims deplore this stuff (and the terrorism by the way) shows that there are large parts of our muslim communities (the overwhelming majority I would say) that have made this progress already. If you want their broader attitudes to women and gays to be consistent with ours then that will take longer.

I am not saying the religion plays no role in it. My point is that demonising the entire religion demonises all those within it. It is ok for someone like you to think like this. When notions like this are given the terminally hard of thinking we have a problem on our hands.

[Peter]

I have heard many members of the KKK or similar groups spout their garbage over the years, I don't recall any of them ever claiming that the bible was their justification. Every member of ISIS I have ever heard speak claims that Islam and the Koran is their justification, without exception.

And my point isn't so much that Islam is to blame, more that Islam must therefore be part of the solution. This then goes back to community leaders, mosques, imams etc having to be involved. Blaming only the individuals involved is too easy and won't solve the problem.

You don't think the KKK espoused Christianity?

The burning cross didn't give you a clue??

[Peter]

I think you're incorrigible, you'll never learn

what one learns depends on what one knows.

You know that.

[World's End Stella]

You don't think the KKK espoused Christianity?

The burning cross didn't give you a clue??

Is burning a cross and using the bible and Christianity as a justification for your actions and views the same thing?

No, no it isn't.

[Peter]

Is burning a cross and using the bible and Christianity as a justification for your actions and views the same thing?

No, no it isn't.

No, it isn't. Its a clue. As is the oath to uphold Christian values. As is their victimisation of catholics and jews from WWI onwards....

Plenty more in there....take your pick.