So a left wing politician dares to point out that

[Monty92]

The problem with blaming the whole religion is that it implies that you blame everyone in it. Do you?

Of course not and why on earth does it imply that? Islam is a set of ideas, nothing more. Bad ideas provoke people into doing bad things. But people who believe in bad ideas but don't do bad things cannot be held responsible for those who do. They should, of course, be ridiculed out of believing bad ideas and sharply reminded where bad ideas can lead, but that is where the opprobrium should end.

[Burney]

It doesn't exist as one community. It isn't as easy to control as some people like to make out. Which is also why this issue is no quick fix.

My point is that no all-encompassing 'community' exists in that sense. Such terms are always imposed from without and are invariably inaccurate.

That does not, however, alter the fact that, were one to look at these crimes in an epidemiological manner, only a fool would dismiss the clear correlation between the ethnicity, culture and religion of its perpetrators and the incidence of such criminality. From such evidence, any decent epidemiologist would feel there were reasonable grounds for assuming and investigating a causal link.

So the point is this: if we would apply this logic in a scientific sense without a moment's hesitation, why would we not apply it here?

The answer, of course, is cowardice.

[Peter]

Of course not and why on earth does it imply that? Islam is a set of ideas, nothing more. Bad ideas provoke people into doing bad things. But people who believe in bad ideas but don't do bad things cannot be held responsible for those who do. They should, of course, be ridiculed out of believing bad ideas, but that is where it should end.

Islam effectively tells muslim men that it is ok to rape young white girls. The religion itself is therefore to blame when muslim men do this.

Thus every muslim man is a potential raper of young white girls. Indeed, the more devout his faith, the more likely he is to do it. Or something similar.

I am not accusing you of this, by the way. But can you see how someone might follow that thread? And why it is dangerous?

[Peter]

My point is that no all-encompassing 'community' exists in that sense. Such terms are always imposed from without and are invariably inaccurate.

That does not, however, alter the fact that, were one to look at these crimes in an epidemiological manner, only a fool would dismiss the clear correlation between the ethnicity, culture and religion of its perpetrators and the incidence of such criminality. From such evidence, any decent epidemiologist would feel there were reasonable grounds for assuming and investigating a causal link.

So the point is this: if we would apply this logic in a scientific sense without a moment's hesitation, why would we not apply it here?

The answer, of course, is cowardice.

I am not disagreeing with the link. I am saying that this is not one, clear cut community you can enter and deal with.

When we criticise 'community leaders' for not dealing with it we are often drastically exaggerating their ability to do so.

[Monty92]

Islam effectively tells muslim men that it is ok to rape young white girls. The religion itself is therefore to blame when muslim men do this.

Thus every muslim man is a potential raper of young white girls. Indeed, the more devout his faith, the more likely he is to do it. Or something similar.

I am not accusing you of this, by the way. But can you see how someone might follow that thread? And why it is dangerous?

But no-one thinks that every Christian or Jew is a potential killer of homos, even though their respective holy books advocates them being so. That is because the Christian and Hebrew holy books have been neutered after we decided as a civilisation that they were no longer compatible with how we want to live and co-exist.

Our job is to do the exact same with Islam. That begins with naming and being honest about the problem. There follows a very long and painful - but necessary - journey. But you just won't come along.

[Burney]

The problem with blaming the whole religion is that it implies that you blame everyone in it. Do you?

This is the problem right here. We have conflated race and religion to such an extent in the case of Islam that we have forgotten that they aren't even close to being the same thing. Islam is a religion - a set of ideas upon which people are expected to base their lives and - like any set of ideas - it is a valid target for criticism.

I'm a Catholic (albeit nominally) and, if you ask me whether Catholicism bears some responsibility for the many crimes of priests against children I would say that it absolutely does. Nothing controversial about that whatsoever.

However, if you suggest that Islam as a creed may bear some responsibility for the actions and attitudes we see in Rotherham, Rochdale and Newcastle, it won't be long before you're shouted down as racist. Why the difference?

[Peter]

But no-one thinks that every Christian or Jew is a potential killer of homos, even though their respective holy books advocates them being so. That is because the Christian and Hebrew holy books have been neutered after we decided as a civilisation that they were no longer compatible with how we want to live and co-exist.

Our job is to do the exact same with Islam. That begins with naming and being honest about the problem. There follows a very long and painful - but necessary - journey. But you just won't come along.

Hmmm... well, of course, the holy books themselves have not been amended in any way. This neutering you speak is of is our modern understanding of the literal passages and our shared belief in how they should shape our behaviour.

In other words, our interpretation of the original scripture. This is the very point I was making to you last week and that you described as a red herring. That a religion can be separated from its original incarnation. And by definition, from any ghastly future *******isation of it.

So when the KKK lynch black people the world is able to separate this from global christianity, even though the clowns are claiming to do it in the name of Christ.

The situation with Islam is the same but for some reason you refuse to accept that it has already happened. You still wish to blame Islam for everything done in its name and resist any argument regarding interpretation as a red herring or a straw man.

I am happy to sit here and agree that some muslin men in britain clearly have an appalling attitude to young, white women and a very small minority do horrific things to them. I would also agree that we are reluctant to admit this because of fears about being labelled racist. I would also agree that the communities these men stem from should be concerned by this and should tackle it in some way.

What I refuse to do is partially absolve these ****s by believing that their religion told them to do it. **** that.

[Peter]

This is the problem right here. We have conflated race and religion to such an extent in the case of Islam that we have forgotten that they aren't even close to being the same thing. Islam is a religion - a set of ideas upon which people are expected to base their lives and - like any set of ideas - it is a valid target for criticism.

I'm a Catholic (albeit nominally) and, if you ask me whether Catholicism bears some responsibility for the many crimes of priests against children I would say that it absolutely does. Nothing controversial about that whatsoever.

However, if you suggest that Islam as a creed may bear some responsibility for the actions and attitudes we see in Rotherham, Rochdale and Newcastle, it won't be long before you're shouted down as racist. Why the difference?

You know why. Not that that makes it ok.

[Burney]

You know why. Not that that makes it ok.

Of course I do. It's because most muslims are brown. And to a certain type of white liberal, having brown skin exempts you from having to answer hard questions about your beliefs and ideas.

Which, if you think about it, is pretty fúcking racist.

[Peter]

Of course I do. It's because most muslims are brown. And to a certain type of white liberal, having brown skin exempts you from having to answer hard questions about your beliefs and ideas.

Which, if you think about it, is pretty fúcking racist.

I was going to say they are almost exlusively asian, ethnic minorities and there is a global tension between islam as a creed and, well, everyone else but mainly white, western people. You know, the whole fundamental islamic terrorism thing.

White western people tend to refer to muslims as one great mass of people.