So a left wing politician dares to point out that

[Burney]

No, it isn't. Its a clue. As is the oath to uphold Christian values. As is their victimisation of catholics and jews from WWI onwards....

Plenty more in there....take your pick.

Hang on. Victimising Catholics is Christian?

[World's End Stella]

No, it isn't. Its a clue. As is the oath to uphold Christian values. As is their victimisation of catholics and jews from WWI onwards....

Plenty more in there....take your pick.

I've not suggested that they have behaved abominably, quite the opposite. I've said that these groups do not use the bible and Christianity to justify their actions in the same way that ISIS uses Islam and the Koran.

Are you actually making the argument that they do? Seriously?

[Peter]

I've not suggested that they have behaved abominably, quite the opposite. I've said that these groups do not use the bible and Christianity to justify their actions in the same way that ISIS uses Islam and the Koran.

Are you actually making the argument that they do? Seriously?

I am suggesting that they always did, very publicly and with no reticence or doubt. They attacked Jews because they rejected Christ, they attacked Catholics for not being protestants and they take an oath to uphold Christian values. What more do you want?

I am not saying the current day clowns do the same. I don't know anything about them.

And I am not saying they were good, devout christians. Just that they aligned themselves with Christianity. It is a matter of fact.

[Peter]

Hang on. Victimising Catholics is Christian?

Not of itself. See my answer to WES.

[redgunamo]

Indeed. The morally bankrupt ****.

Exactly. You all have blood on your hands.

[Monty92]

Exactly. You all have blood on your hands.

Serves me right for assuming your mum was menopausal.

[redgunamo]

Serves me right for assuming your mum was menopausal.

Yeah, gpwm

[Monty92]

Yes, of course it does. and it has more work to do than most, and it has to come from them.

However....the fact that plenty of muslims deplore this stuff (and the terrorism by the way) shows that there are large parts of our muslim communities (the overwhelming majority I would say) that have made this progress already. If you want their broader attitudes to women and gays to be consistent with ours then that will take longer.

I am not saying the religion plays no role in it. My point is that demonising the entire religion demonises all those within it. It is ok for someone like you to think like this. When notions like this are given the terminally hard of thinking we have a problem on our hands.

I don't agree that demonising the entire religion serves to demonise all those within it, and the claim that it does is used almost exclusively by people who have bad motives and want to shut down debate. In the Cold War, this was called 'semantic infiltration' and is a tactic used to control the parameters of debate through the control of language. In the case of Islamists, this tactic is seen in the reframing of the utterly meaningless word 'Islamopobia' to make it impossible for people to criticise Islam without being called a bigot.

If you're worried about a rise in anti-Muslim bigotry (of which there is of course plenty), then the best thing you could do to tackle this IS demonise the religion. Because it is the perpetual, almost pathalogical, reluctance to say that these problems are rooted in Islamic scripture that is doing more than anything to make people less inclined to differentiate between good and bad muslims and just lump them all in together.

[eastgermanautos]

Yes, but the tacit support they receive from your average liberal is, I believe, in the name of political correctness rather than electoral calculation. When a liberal in the street doesn't speak out against Pakistani grooming gangs, it's not because they worry about it losing Labour the next election by alienating Asian voters. They're just scared of being called racist or aligning themselves with individuals and parties that their Facebook friends deem beyond the pale.

Come on, you clowns. Looks at you, working yourselves into a froth about white hookers. As a black man, I resent it.

[Peter]

I don't agree that demonising the entire religion serves to demonise all those within it, and the claim that it does is used almost exclusively by people who have bad motives and want to shut down debate. In the Cold War, this was called 'semantic infiltration' and is a tactic used to control the parameters of debate through the control of language. In the case of Islamists, this tactic is seen in the reframing of the utterly meaningless word 'Islamopobia' to make it impossible for people to criticise Islam without being called a bigot.

If you're worried about a rise in anti-Muslim bigotry (of which there is of course plenty), then the best thing you could do to tackle this IS demonise the religion. Because it is the perpetual, almost pathalogical, reluctance to say that these problems are rooted in Islamic scripture that is doing more than anything to make people less inclined to differentiate between good and bad muslims and just lump them all in together.

We will have to pick this up again later, I am a bit busy this morning.