June 2015: Parliament votes for EU referendum

[Peter]

Why does it not make sense to be an independent country outside of a supranational entity? National sovereignty has been the standard unit of geopolitical organisation for hundreds of years. Self-determination was considered the key element of post-imperial Europe after WW1 and more globally after WW2 when Britain's own empire was disbanded, along with others.

Was the concept of self-rule for Ireland merely the 'rejection of an idea' or was it the rejection of a specific supranational entity - the British Empire? Likewise, the rejection of the EU is not the rejection of an 'idea' of Europe, but an actual powerful political contruct. There was probably far less confusion in the minds of thise who voted to leave than of those who are desperately trying to avoid leaving while making it look as if they are.

As for the concerted campaign by pretty much the entire ruling class to persuade voters that the sky would fall on our heads the moment we voted leave, let alone after we actually left, well, call it what you like. Project Fear is not such a bad description imo.

Just for the avoidance of doubt, Ireland was not part of the British Empire. It was part of the United Kingdom. As such it was denied any right to any degree of self government. There is no parallel whatsoever with that and the EU.

[Ash]

Just for the avoidance of doubt, Ireland was not part of the British Empire. It was part of the United Kingdom. As such it was denied any right to any degree of self government. There is no parallel whatsoever with that and the EU.

Nit picking. Straw nits, too. I doubt those who sought to establish what bacame the Irish Free State cared whether they were extricating themselves from the UK or the British Empire. My point is about the concept of sovereignty, rather than trying to draw exact parallels between voluntary and involuntary supra-national constructs.

[Peter]

Nit picking. Straw nits, too. I doubt those who sought to establish what bacame the Irish Free State cared whether they were extricating themselves from the UK or the British Empire. My point is about the concept of sovereignty, rather than trying to draw exact parallels between voluntary and involuntary supra-national constructs.

The point being that UK was not, and is not, a supra-national construct. Its a nation state.

I think the IRA was concerned with a little more than sovereignty.....

[Ash]

The point being that UK was not, and is not, a supra-national construct. Its a nation state.

I think the IRA was concerned with a little more than sovereignty.....

Lexical sophistry to pretend that Ireland was not subject to foreign rule imo.

And the UK is surely a multi-national state. However much of Ireland it includes.

[Peter]

Lexical sophistry to pretend that Ireland was not subject to foreign rule imo.

And the UK is surely a multi-national state. However much of Ireland it includes.

No, no, no. It is a nation state by both definition and design. Even if it is multi-national, it remains a nation state.

There is one interesting parallel. Ireland held an election in 1922 which focused entirely on the Free State treaty. The pro-treaty factions won and De Valera refused to accept it. Civil war followed.

Note to remainers- respect the public vote.