Something vaguely interesting in the wake of recent terrorist attacks.

[Ash]

The original point was whether Islam itself is to blame for this, whether the religion itself is the inevitable root cause of all these events. I don’t think it is.

Likewise the Crusades had nothing to do with Christianity, I presume. It is good to have your perspective aired, and comforting to think how infrequently a pop concert is blown up, but a global view might suggests that violence in the name of that religion is not so rare as you suggest. In the last week:

2017.07.11 (Nigeria) Eight villagers are forced to the ground and executed for defying Sharia.
2017.07.10 (India) Seven Hindu pilgrims, including five women, are massacred by heavily-armed Muslim terrorists.
2017.07.10 (Iraq) Seven children are executed and hung from lamp posts by the Islamic State.
2017.07.08 (Kenya) Nine villagers are beheaded 'like chickens' by Islamic extremists.
2017.07.07 (Egypt) Islamic militants stage a brutal assault on a checkpoint that beings with a suicide blast and leaves two dozen dead.
2017.07.06 (India) A 65-year-old Hindu is stabbed to death during a Muslim riot over an 'offensive' Facebook post.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Finally, apostasy. Remind yourself what the punishment for apostasy is in Islam. Then ask yourself if that really is the kind of thing we can pretend is compatible with western enlightenment values.

[redgunamo]

Likewise the Crusades had nothing to do with Christianity, I presume. It is good to have your perspective aired, and comforting to think how infrequently a pop concert is blown up, but a global view might suggests that violence in the name of that religion is not so rare as you suggest. In the last week:

2017.07.11 (Nigeria) Eight villagers are forced to the ground and executed for defying Sharia.
2017.07.10 (India) Seven Hindu pilgrims, including five women, are massacred by heavily-armed Muslim terrorists.
2017.07.10 (Iraq) Seven children are executed and hung from lamp posts by the Islamic State.
2017.07.08 (Kenya) Nine villagers are beheaded 'like chickens' by Islamic extremists.
2017.07.07 (Egypt) Islamic militants stage a brutal assault on a checkpoint that beings with a suicide blast and leaves two dozen dead.
2017.07.06 (India) A 65-year-old Hindu is stabbed to death during a Muslim riot over an 'offensive' Facebook post.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Finally, apostasy. Remind yourself what the punishment for apostasy is in Islam. Then ask yourself if that really is the kind of thing we can pretend is compatible with western enlightenment values.

People were killing each other long before that too though, in fairness.

[Sir C]

Likewise the Crusades had nothing to do with Christianity, I presume. It is good to have your perspective aired, and comforting to think how infrequently a pop concert is blown up, but a global view might suggests that violence in the name of that religion is not so rare as you suggest. In the last week:

2017.07.11 (Nigeria) Eight villagers are forced to the ground and executed for defying Sharia.
2017.07.10 (India) Seven Hindu pilgrims, including five women, are massacred by heavily-armed Muslim terrorists.
2017.07.10 (Iraq) Seven children are executed and hung from lamp posts by the Islamic State.
2017.07.08 (Kenya) Nine villagers are beheaded 'like chickens' by Islamic extremists.
2017.07.07 (Egypt) Islamic militants stage a brutal assault on a checkpoint that beings with a suicide blast and leaves two dozen dead.
2017.07.06 (India) A 65-year-old Hindu is stabbed to death during a Muslim riot over an 'offensive' Facebook post.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Finally, apostasy. Remind yourself what the punishment for apostasy is in Islam. Then ask yourself if that really is the kind of thing we can pretend is compatible with western enlightenment values.

Ah ha! So you agree that we should go in there and knock the living piss out of them?

At last you have seen the light, a!

[Monty92]

Likewise the Crusades had nothing to do with Christianity, I presume. It is good to have your perspective aired, and comforting to think how infrequently a pop concert is blown up, but a global view might suggests that violence in the name of that religion is not so rare as you suggest. In the last week:

2017.07.11 (Nigeria) Eight villagers are forced to the ground and executed for defying Sharia.
2017.07.10 (India) Seven Hindu pilgrims, including five women, are massacred by heavily-armed Muslim terrorists.
2017.07.10 (Iraq) Seven children are executed and hung from lamp posts by the Islamic State.
2017.07.08 (Kenya) Nine villagers are beheaded 'like chickens' by Islamic extremists.
2017.07.07 (Egypt) Islamic militants stage a brutal assault on a checkpoint that beings with a suicide blast and leaves two dozen dead.
2017.07.06 (India) A 65-year-old Hindu is stabbed to death during a Muslim riot over an 'offensive' Facebook post.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Finally, apostasy. Remind yourself what the punishment for apostasy is in Islam. Then ask yourself if that really is the kind of thing we can pretend is compatible with western enlightenment values.

Indeed. One wonders why Peter is so keen to differentiate western terrorists from their counterparts in societies where religious dogma still prevails? Most western terrorists have spent time in such societies, so why should they not also be considered products of the same environment?

Peter, you point to how few terrorists there are in spite of the efforts of fundamentalist Imams to persuade them and how this shows that the religion is not to blame. Again, why do you only count western terrorism in your workings?

Also, how would your smugness be looking if all of the foiled attacks of recent years had been successful in the west? Would you be quite so ready to point to how few of them are prepared to die and murder for their beliefs?

[Burney]

Likewise the Crusades had nothing to do with Christianity, I presume. It is good to have your perspective aired, and comforting to think how infrequently a pop concert is blown up, but a global view might suggests that violence in the name of that religion is not so rare as you suggest. In the last week:

2017.07.11 (Nigeria) Eight villagers are forced to the ground and executed for defying Sharia.
2017.07.10 (India) Seven Hindu pilgrims, including five women, are massacred by heavily-armed Muslim terrorists.
2017.07.10 (Iraq) Seven children are executed and hung from lamp posts by the Islamic State.
2017.07.08 (Kenya) Nine villagers are beheaded 'like chickens' by Islamic extremists.
2017.07.07 (Egypt) Islamic militants stage a brutal assault on a checkpoint that beings with a suicide blast and leaves two dozen dead.
2017.07.06 (India) A 65-year-old Hindu is stabbed to death during a Muslim riot over an 'offensive' Facebook post.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Finally, apostasy. Remind yourself what the punishment for apostasy is in Islam. Then ask yourself if that really is the kind of thing we can pretend is compatible with western enlightenment values.

Look closer to home. 250 years after the Enlightenment and 400 years after the Reformation, people are being killed in Europe for blasphemy again. Why? Islam.

UK: Salman Rushdie and his publishers terrorised, attacked and in one case murdered for 'blaspheming'.
Holland: Pim Fortuyn murdered for publicly opposing Islam, Theo van Gogh slaughtered for 'blaspheming'; Ayan Hirsi Ali chased out of the country, becoming the first refugee from Western Europe since the Second World War.
France: Charlie Hebdo's staff murdered for blasphemy

This is happening for one reason and one reason only: the existence of large numbers of devout and practising muslims in our countries.

Islam IS the disease. The individuals are just symptoms.

[Monty92]

Indeed. One wonders why Peter is so keen to differentiate western terrorists from their counterparts in societies where religious dogma still prevails? Most western terrorists have spent time in such societies, so why should they not also be considered products of the same environment?

Peter, you point to how few terrorists there are in spite of the efforts of fundamentalist Imams to persuade them and how this shows that the religion is not to blame. Again, why do you only count western terrorism in your workings?

Also, how would your smugness be looking if all of the foiled attacks of recent years had been successful in the west? Would you be quite so ready to point to how few of them are prepared to die and murder for their beliefs?

Peter, what about the estimated 12-15 Muslim honour killings that take place in the UK each year? Or the gang-raping of literally thousands of young girls across the UK by Muslims that is now coming to light?

Mentally ill or a product of their environment? Just an exception to the rule that Islam cannot be blamed?

[Burney]

Indeed. One wonders why Peter is so keen to differentiate western terrorists from their counterparts in societies where religious dogma still prevails? Most western terrorists have spent time in such societies, so why should they not also be considered products of the same environment?

Peter, you point to how few terrorists there are in spite of the efforts of fundamentalist Imams to persuade them and how this shows that the religion is not to blame. Again, why do you only count western terrorism in your workings?

Also, how would your smugness be looking if all of the foiled attacks of recent years had been successful in the west? Would you be quite so ready to point to how few of them are prepared to die and murder for their beliefs?

Have you read Douglas Murray's book yet? Depressing, but vital reading.

At least you lot can bugger off to Israel when it all goes tits up.

[Sir C]

Have you read Douglas Murray's book yet? Depressing, but vital reading.

At least you lot can bugger off to Israel when it all goes tits up.

When it properly goes off, who is Pakistan likely to be lending a few warheads? I don't fancy being in Tel Aviv.

[Monty92]

Have you read Douglas Murray's book yet? Depressing, but vital reading.

At least you lot can bugger off to Israel when it all goes tits up.

Not yet, but it's next to my bed.

I hope it actually gives a credible account of how he forsees the death of Europe taking place step by step (beyond the obvious). In his recent podcast outings he's not really volunteered this insight.

[Peter]

So, the behaviour of a father in Afghanistan who stones his own daughter to death for adultery, as prescribed by the hadith, is not the fault of Islam itself.

A citizen of Saudi Arabia who openly advocates death for apostasy, supports his government in applying such a law and expresses his enthusiasm for it by attending public executions, is not the fault of Islam, even though it explicitly prescribes this punishment.

A law-maker in Iran who in good conscience helps to implement the death penalty for homosexuality, because he believes Islamic scripture, which commands that homosexuals be killed, is the infallible word of God, but this is not the fault of Islam.

Even though all of these actions are at the direct behest of the religion you claim should not be blamed...

On another note, you wrongly assume I absolve other religions for their past (and enduring) moral failings. I do absolutely no such thing.

If I am singling out Islam, it is because Islam remains an intolerably dangerous religion (dangerous to other muslims far more than to non-muslims) whereas the others do not. That is not to say that other religions do not continue to do untold harm, but to no way near the same extent as Islam.

I think it’s incredible that you deny the primary role of religion in these matters and how different things would be without it. It is indisputable that without Islam (or certainly with LESS Islam) these societies would have had a far better chance of adopting modern western values. For starters, without Islam (or any other religion), no geopolitical events would have created a climate of religious devotion in which apostates are executed (by definition this is true, because without religion there would be no such thing as apostasy) and there’s every chance that women and gays might be spared by now as well.

The other point is that the geopolitics you rightly refer to as a factor in how these societies have failed to progress is also inextricably linked with religion. This is because Jihad is justified by Islamic scripture when Muslim societies are being attacked. Given this, how can you possibly separate geopolitics from religion, as you seem so keen to do?

So we can agree on one thing then… other religions have potential for untold harm and are capable of being fundamentally separated from modern values by those who wish to do so.

This leads neatly on to the area where we seem to disagree. That it is not the fault of Islam but the fault of an interpretation of Islam- an interpretation that every single Muslim I have ever met, from Palmers Green to Las Vegas via Malaysia, does not share. I blame this interpretation every bit as much as you do. The difference between us is that I seem to be willing to divorce this interpretation from Islam itself and the very many more modern, peaceful interpretations accepting by hundreds of millions of muslims throughout the globe.

I take this to mean that Islam, like every other potentially lethal and ludicrous religion, is capable of change, of modernisation and of a more generous and peaceful interpretation that doesn’t require regular murder.

Look at Malaysia. A Muslim country. Homosexuality is illegal, particularly in public, and carries a prison sentence. Not stoning to death. And the attitude is slowly changing. The country is not becoming ‘less Muslim’. Simply more accepting (albeit slowly) of a modern world that it wishes to be a part of. You could argue that this is at least partly due to a western influence over two centuries, and in fact it is.

On the subject of geopolitics, you seem to be trying to sell Islam as the sole barrier to an acceptance of western values. Is it a barrier? Yes, of course. Not just as a religion but because it forms the backbone of their moral code, their notions of justice and their form of government. But also note that all the examples you give come from a certain part of the world where geopolitics has played havoc with people’s lives for generations. There is a distinct difference, geopolitically, between Malaysia and Saudi Arabia- many, actually. It is a little naïve to think that religion is the only one.

Either way….the fact remains that those countries adopting a more modern interpretation of Islam are not causing us problems. This is how religion is supposed to work in the modern world. Perhaps the more complicated point is which interpretation (the modern or the fundamental) is the real *******isation of Islam- but let us not get into that…..