Labour's attempts to differentiate their position on Brexit and specifically

[Monty92]

This is a interesting point imo. Over 80% of the turnout voted for party manifestos committed to a full Brexit, but the PLP, like all the main parties' MPs, are overwhelmingly pro-EU. With the labour vote comprising both anti-EU and pro-EU components they are something of a coalition within themselves.

Another thing that doesn't get much mention is that many of the influential voices who spent the referendum campaign telling people that they must not vote leave were also spending the last couple of years insisting that JC should not be leader of the Labour Party. Yet in both cases voters in large numbers have defied them.

How will you feel about your Labour vote if Billy Bragg turns out to be right on this?

https://twitter.com/billybragg/statu...15913079296001

[Ash]

How will you feel about your Labour vote if Billy Bragg turns out to be right on this?

https://twitter.com/billybragg/statu...15913079296001

New US Oct dates tickets on sale Friday 14 April 10am local time?

[Monty92]

New US Oct dates tickets on sale Friday 14 April 10am local time?

Soz, link now fixed

[Ash]

Soz, link now fixed

I don't believe Billy Bragg is right in his support for an institution that despises the working class, in his preference of undemocratic supra-nationalism over sovereign accountability, and his calls for Corbyn to immediately reverse his Brexit position.

If the latter does happen then it won't be the first time I've been let down by a politician and it won't be the last.

[Burney]

This is a interesting point imo. Over 80% of the turnout voted for party manifestos committed to a full Brexit, but the PLP, like all the main parties' MPs, are overwhelmingly pro-EU. With the labour vote comprising both anti-EU and pro-EU components they are something of a coalition within themselves.

Another thing that doesn't get much mention is that many of the influential voices who spent the referendum campaign telling people that they must not vote leave were also spending the last couple of years insisting that JC should not be leader of the Labour Party. Yet in both cases voters in large numbers have defied them.

Well it seems abundantly clear that lots and lots of Remain types voted Labour whilst either wilfully ignoring or simply being wholly ignorant of the party's clearly expressed stance on the EU. Young people in particular seem almost immune to the information that their beloved cuddly old uncle Jeremy has been avowedly anti-EU his entire political life. It just does not seem to compute.

[Monty92]

Well it seems abundantly clear that lots and lots of Remain types voted Labour whilst either wilfully ignoring or simply being wholly ignorant of the party's clearly expressed stance on the EU. Young people in particular seem almost immune to the information that their beloved cuddly old uncle Jeremy has been avowedly anti-EU his entire political life. It just does not seem to compute.

Unless of course yer man Billy Bragg is correct in that Labour are simply playing the long game and keeping their noses dry until such a time as either the Tories themselves fudge/abandon Brexit or Labour win the next GE at which point they revert to a pro-EU position.

[Burney]

Unless of course yer man Billy Bragg is correct in that Labour are simply playing the long game and keeping their noses dry until such a time as either the Tories themselves fudge/abandon Brexit or Labour win the next GE at which point they revert to a pro-EU position.

I don't think abandoning or reversing Brexit is a realistic option anymore. Even 'softening' it is going to prove very, very tricky. And even if that did happen, what then? You'd still have half the country utterly seething with resentment at being cheated in this way and, as May is currently finding out, such a divided country is fùcking hard to govern. Long term, the only possible resolution is in Brexit taking place in whatever form and everyone getting used to it.

[Monty92]

I don't think abandoning or reversing Brexit is a realistic option anymore. Even 'softening' it is going to prove very, very tricky. And even if that did happen, what then? You'd still have half the country utterly seething with resentment at being cheated in this way and, as May is currently finding out, such a divided country is fùcking hard to govern. Long term, the only possible resolution is in Brexit taking place in whatever form and everyone getting used to it.

I'm dubious about whether half the country would be utterly seething with resentment. Certainly there would be many voters and, crucially, many Tory MPs, who would feel this way. But I suspect an equal number would be rather indifferent, for a number of reasons, but mainly because - as we both acknowledge - Brexit was a protest vote as much as anything, driven by a desire to give the establishment a bloody nose rather than a desire for the tangible outcome and its consequences (unknown as many of them may be).

[World's End Stella]

Well it seems abundantly clear that lots and lots of Remain types voted Labour whilst either wilfully ignoring or simply being wholly ignorant of the party's clearly expressed stance on the EU. Young people in particular seem almost immune to the information that their beloved cuddly old uncle Jeremy has been avowedly anti-EU his entire political life. It just does not seem to compute.

You're missing the point, Burney. Many Remain people voted Labour because they didn't want a hard Brexit and the Tories having a strong majority seemed the most likely way for that to happen.

It wasn't about the Labour manifesto, it was about weakening the Tories so that they had to compromise.

BTW, I don't think anyone committed to a hard or soft or full Brexit. I don't think anyone ever has because no one has ever really attempted to define what it meant. Which is one of the reasons I didn't vote Leave.

[Monty92]

You're missing the point, Burney. Many Remain people voted Labour because they didn't want a hard Brexit and the Tories having a strong majority seemed the most likely way for that to happen.

It wasn't about the Labour manifesto, it was about weakening the Tories so that they had to compromise.

BTW, I don't think anyone committed to a hard or soft or full Brexit. I don't think anyone ever has because no one has ever really attempted to define what it meant. Which is one of the reasons I didn't vote Leave.

Hard Brexit means leaving the EU. Leaving the EU means leaving the single market, customs union and ending freedom of movement.

Soft Brexit means not leaving the EU by not doing any of the above.

Labour campaigned on a manifesto that pledged to leave the single market, customs union and end freedom of movement. Therefore, if as you say, people voted Labour to avoid a hard Brexit, it seems a strange way of doing it. Unless, of course, they had a longer term and more calculated plan in mind.