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Thread: Labour's attempts to differentiate their position on Brexit and specifically

  1. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by World's End Stella View Post
    Possibly. But I still think an awful lot of Leave voters assumed that a hard Brexit would never happened. Had the referendum made it clear that they were voting to have no access to the common market, no longer be part of the customs union, no longer have a financial passport and that that would be the case from the first day of Brexit with no guarantee of any free trade agreement at that time, I think the vote might have been different.
    And perhaps had it been made more clear to Remain voters that they were voting to transfer more and more powers over time from an accountable Parliament to an unnaccountable Commission, that Britain would never have control over its borders and immigration levels, and that the EU would continue to expand into more countries at ever greater expense and with an ever expanding bureaucracy, and that their vote would be worth less and less ... the vote might have been different again.

  2. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Ash View Post
    And perhaps had it been made more clear to Remain voters that they were voting to transfer more and more powers over time from an accountable Parliament to an unnaccountable Commission, that Britain would never have control over its borders and immigration levels, and that the EU would continue to expand into more countries at ever greater expense and with an ever expanding bureaucracy, and that their vote would be worth less and less ... the vote might have been different again.
    The democratic deficit argument was quite hard to swallow when an unelected Westminster PM and cabinet was planning to negotiate Brexit without consulting parliament in any meaningful way. A freak election result may make us look rather more accountable but I am still prompted to ask why so many people seem to find Westminster democratically acceptable yet reserve nothing but rage for Brussels.

    Not really including you in that, before you ask.

  3. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by World's End Stella View Post
    Possibly. But I still think an awful lot of Leave voters assumed that a hard Brexit would never happened. Had the referendum made it clear that they were voting to have no access to the common market, no longer be part of the customs union, no longer have a financial passport and that that would be the case from the first day of Brexit with no guarantee of any free trade agreement at that time, I think the vote might have been different.
    You remember last year, right? You remember how Project Fear kept saying all of those things over and over and over again? And you remember how the British public STILL voted to Leave?

  4. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by World's End Stella View Post
    Possibly. But I still think an awful lot of Leave voters assumed that a hard Brexit would never happened. Had the referendum made it clear that they were voting to have no access to the common market, no longer be part of the customs union, no longer have a financial passport and that that would be the case from the first day of Brexit with no guarantee of any free trade agreement at that time, I think the vote might have been different.
    This 'no access to the common market' tosh. Explain to me how China and Japan happily access the common market, but we wouldn't be able to? I think what you might mean is 'access to the common market with the imposition of some small rates of duty, which we can negotiate.'

    As for the customs union, we import goods from all around the world and have a perfectly functioning customs apparatus in order to do so. As does every other nation on earth. What's the big drama?

  5. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    You remember last year, right? You remember how Project Fear kept saying all of those things over and over and over again? And you remember how the British public STILL voted to Leave?
    They also said we could end up in another war

  6. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    The democratic deficit argument was quite hard to swallow when an unelected Westminster PM and cabinet was planning to negotiate Brexit without consulting parliament in any meaningful way. A freak election result may make us look rather more accountable but I am still prompted to ask why so many people seem to find Westminster democratically acceptable yet reserve nothing but rage for Brussels.

    Not really including you in that, before you ask.
    The argument that 'There are problems with our democracy, so we have no right to complain about the structurally anti-democratic nature of the EU' always seemed an odd one to me. Jorge used to trot it out rather a lot.

    There may be democratic deficits in Westminster, but they are things we can vote to change should we so desire. The democratic deficits in Brussels, however, are far greater and not subject to our democratic scrutiny in any way, shape of form.

    Besides, if anything, I would say that this country at the moment is suffering from a surfeit of democracy rather than a deficit.

  7. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir C View Post
    This 'no access to the common market' tosh. Explain to me how China and Japan happily access the common market, but we wouldn't be able to? I think what you might mean is 'access to the common market with the imposition of some small rates of duty, which we can negotiate.'

    As for the customs union, we import goods from all around the world and have a perfectly functioning customs apparatus in order to do so. As does every other nation on earth. What's the big drama?
    Well..... it sounds like a pain in the arse doesn't it. I just want a quiet life

  8. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Well..... it sounds like a pain in the arse doesn't it. I just want a quiet life
    Why is it a pain in the arse for you? Are you an importer or exporter?

  9. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    They also said we could end up in another war
    Now that I'm well up for. I'm now old enough not to get called up and only have a daughter, so I'm very happy to wave the lads off to go and give various frogs, wops, dagoes, spics and krauts a damn good thrashing.

    Disappointingly, I found I ran out of insulting epithets for our European brethren rather quickly there.

  10. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    The democratic deficit argument was quite hard to swallow when an unelected Westminster PM and cabinet was planning to negotiate Brexit without consulting parliament in any meaningful way. A freak election result may make us look rather more accountable but I am still prompted to ask why so many people seem to find Westminster democratically acceptable yet reserve nothing but rage for Brussels.

    Not really including you in that, before you ask.
    We don't vote for PMs, we vote for MPs. I have no problem with continuity PMs like May and Brown leading their parties without winning a GE. Do Parliament get consulted in any meaningful way when EU bills become UK law?

    However flawed UK democracy might be it is at least more democratic than the EU. Magna Carta was a long way from universal suffrage but it was still an improvement on absolute monarchy.

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