Labour's attempts to differentiate their position on Brexit and specifically

[Peter]

That cuts both ways, too.

Of course it does. I know someone who voted Remain because he was sick of immigration. I know someone who voted leave because he wanted closer ties with Europe.

The biggest mistake you can make in politics is to believe that the massed ranks of the stupid are lined up on one side. The second biggest is to ask people why they voted a certain way. Trust me, you don't want to know unless you are writing a stand up routine.

[Ash]

But this information was made available to them in perfectly accessible ways and by both sides. That they chose tovote in ignorance was their own choice.

Much is made of 'voting in ignorance'. Very often by those who didn't get the result they wanted, but more generally by those who dislike democracy generally, and would rather things were run exclusively by people like themselves and for their own interests.

[Ash]

Of course it does. I know someone who voted Remain because he was sick of immigration. I know someone who voted leave because he wanted closer ties with Europe.

The biggest mistake you can make in politics is to believe that the massed ranks of the stupid are lined up on one side. The second biggest is to ask people why they voted a certain way. Trust me, you don't want to know unless you are writing a stand up routine.

It all evens out in the end.

Like refereeing decisions. Maybe.

[Ash]

Have you listened to the average conversation on a train or bus recently?.

Yes. Usually overly-loud middle class types braying about their next travelling expedition and extolling the virtue of cheap labour for the building works on their property portfolios.

[Peter]

It all evens out in the end.

Like refereeing decisions. Maybe.

Democracy is the process of giving people a choice between two or more things that they don't understand. It works as long as they are equally ignorant of both sides of the debate.

My point regarding leave was that I felt it had been deliberately constructed to scare people into voting for the thing they knew (remain) rather than the thing that sat in the dark (leave). In the end it didn't matter, although leave may have won a bigger victory with a clearer choice- who knows.

[Peter]

Yes. Usually overly-loud middle class types braying about their next travelling expedition and extolling the virtue of cheap labour for the building works on their property portfolios.

Nicely put

[Monty92]

Much is made of 'voting in ignorance'. Very often by those who didn't get the result they wanted, but more generally by those who dislike democracy generally, and would rather things were run exclusively by people like themselves and for their own interests.

I think you're taking a rather uncontroversial belief - that most people are thick - and using it to push your line about the elite industrial complex. While your position on elitism is entirely valid, I think you need to be careful not to venture into straw man territory.

After all, both Charlie and I are far from Remainers.

[Ash]

I think you're taking a rather uncontroversial belief - that most people are thick - and using it to push your line about the elite industrial complex. While your position on elitism is entirely valid, I think you need to be careful not to venture into straw man territory.

After all, both Charlie and I are far from Remainers.

Hardly a straw man in the context of this discussion. A pillar of the EU as I see it is to restrict the role of the demos in politics, leaving it to the 'experts' (the elite).

I can't speak for your reasons for voting Leave but if I disliked the proles and their ability to vote as you do I probably would have voted Remain .

[World's End Stella]

Democracy is the process of giving people a choice between two or more things that they don't understand. It works as long as they are equally ignorant of both sides of the debate.

My point regarding leave was that I felt it had been deliberately constructed to scare people into voting for the thing they knew (remain) rather than the thing that sat in the dark (leave). In the end it didn't matter, although leave may have won a bigger victory with a clearer choice- who knows.

Possibly. But I still think an awful lot of Leave voters assumed that a hard Brexit would never happened. Had the referendum made it clear that they were voting to have no access to the common market, no longer be part of the customs union, no longer have a financial passport and that that would be the case from the first day of Brexit with no guarantee of any free trade agreement at that time, I think the vote might have been different.

[Peter]

Possibly. But I still think an awful lot of Leave voters assumed that a hard Brexit would never happened. Had the referendum made it clear that they were voting to have no access to the common market, no longer be part of the customs union, no longer have a financial passport and that that would be the case from the first day of Brexit with no guarantee of any free trade agreement at that time, I think the vote might have been different.

And we will never know. The only thing I know for sure is that if we don't withdraw from free movement there will be millions of people livid. And I would totally get their outrage, whilst not sharing it.