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Thread: Labour's attempts to differentiate their position on Brexit and specifically

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Now that I'm well up for. I'm now old enough not to get called up and only have a daughter, so I'm very happy to wave the lads off to go and give various frogs, wops, dagoes, spics and krauts a damn good thrashing.

    Disappointingly, I found I ran out of insulting epithets for our European brethren rather quickly there.
    Bogtrotters to the west, bogwogs to the east. Also 'Belgian' is surely an insulting term on its own?

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    The argument that 'There are problems with our democracy, so we have no right to complain about the structurally anti-democratic nature of the EU' always seemed an odd one to me. Jorge used to trot it out rather a lot.

    There may be democratic deficits in Westminster, but they are things we can vote to change should we so desire. The democratic deficits in Brussels, however, are far greater and not subject to our democratic scrutiny in any way, shape of form.

    Besides, if anything, I would say that this country at the moment is suffering from a surfeit of democracy rather than a deficit.
    It is a tough sell, I agree. My question was to those who are happy with one and not the other, not some contorted moral question about the right to throw ideological stones.

    I wouldn't say those in Brussels were far greater, but then I don't have a problem with either. Democracy is not the be all and end all to me- I think my point is that it isn't for a lot of other people until the undemocratic institution in question speaks with a French accent.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir C View Post
    Bogtrotters to the west, bogwogs to the east. Also 'Belgian' is surely an insulting term on its own?
    Oh, I don't count the Irish and I bear no animus against the Dutch, really. I do think it's odd that we haven't come up with something more cutting for the Belgians, though. I suppose their sheer insignificance has protected them.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Ash View Post
    We don't vote for PMs, we vote for MPs. I have no problem with continuity PMs like May and Brown leading their parties without winning a GE. Do Parliament get consulted in any meaningful way when EU bills become UK law?

    However flawed UK democracy might be it is at least more democratic than the EU. Magna Carta was a long way from universal suffrage but it was still an improvement on absolute monarchy.
    We don't conform to most modern (18th century onwards) interpretations of democracy. No separation of church and state, unelected Head of State, mangled unelected executive that is drawn directly from the legislature, unelected second chamber with significant, historical legal functions, no codified constitution, antiquated voting system....

    On the plus side we get to directly elect the people who organise the binmen and street lighting, and we now have a Mayor of Birmingham….

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    It is a tough sell, I agree. My question was to those who are happy with one and not the other, not some contorted moral question about the right to throw ideological stones.

    I wouldn't say those in Brussels were far greater, but then I don't have a problem with either. Democracy is not the be all and end all to me- I think my point is that it isn't for a lot of other people until the undemocratic institution in question speaks with a French accent.
    Of course. But it speaking with a French accent is a fundamental problem. We've never really signed up to this idea of destroying the nation state and breaking down national identities. To an Englishman, it is still 'them' (all foreigners) and 'us' (the English with the unfortunate celts allowed to join in if they behave). That is not a criticism. It is an attitude of mind that has served us well for rather a long time, in fact.

    Ultimately, it boils down to this, p: You can't trust foreigners. They're not as good as Englishmen. That's just a fact.
    Last edited by Burney; 06-26-2017 at 04:12 PM.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    We don't conform to most modern (18th century onwards) interpretations of democracy. No separation of church and state, unelected Head of State, mangled unelected executive that is drawn directly from the legislature, unelected second chamber with significant, historical legal functions, no codified constitution, antiquated voting system....

    On the plus side we get to directly elect the people who organise the binmen and street lighting, and we now have a Mayor of Birmingham….
    No, because our democratic structures pre-date those concepts of democracy. What's more, they've proved fairly robust by virtue of their adaptability. Ultimately, that's the thing about the UK system: whatever it's theoretical flaws, it actually works remarkably well.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Of course. But it speaking with a French accent is a fundamental problem. We've never really signed up to this idea of destroying the nation state and breaking down national identities. To an Englishman, it is still 'them' (all foreigners) and 'us' (the English with the unfortunate celts allowed to join in if they behave). That is not a criticism. It is an attitude of mind that has served us well for rather a long time, in fact.

    Ultimately, it boils down to this, p: You can't trust foreigners. They're not as good as Englishmen. That's just a fact.
    Which is a far more honest and accurate description of the common view than some old horse**** about democracy. Not that I am suggesting that honesty and accuracy should play any part in our political process.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    No, because our democratic structures pre-date those concepts of democracy. What's more, they've proved fairly robust by virtue of their adaptability. Ultimately, that's the thing about the UK system: whatever it's theoretical flaws, it actually works remarkably well.
    Democracy is not about things working well, it is about the people getting what they deserve.

    British democracy is about pragmatism, patronage and tradition. Of course it works well. Certainly for those in it.....

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    We don't conform to most modern (18th century onwards) interpretations of democracy. No separation of church and state, unelected Head of State, mangled unelected executive that is drawn directly from the legislature, unelected second chamber with significant, historical legal functions, no codified constitution, antiquated voting system....

    On the plus side we get to directly elect the people who organise the binmen and street lighting, and we now have a Mayor of Birmingham….
    Oh, I'm all for waving the monarchy off into the sunset and abolishing the house of Lords, but Queenie doesn't actually do anything really political. We're hardly a theocracy, at least not untill the Alans take over, and binmen are terribly important, don't you think? The only thing most of us really expect from our Local Authority to do well is take the damn rubbish away.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Ash View Post
    Oh, I'm all for waving the monarchy off into the sunset and abolishing the house of Lords, but Queenie doesn't actually do anything really political. We're hardly a theocracy, at least not untill the Alans take over, and binmen are terribly important, don't you think? The only thing most of us really expect from our Local Authority to do well is take the damn rubbish away.
    I'm just saying..... we are quick to say that ours works in practice but that Brussels doesn't work in theory.

    I care little for either. Governments don't actually make decisions anyway. We would be better off voting for the CEO of Lloyds or Google.

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