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Thread: Labour's attempts to differentiate their position on Brexit and specifically

  1. #51
    [QUOTE=Peter;4166797]
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post

    Its just a case of explaining that, fundamentally, leaving the EU means leaving the single market and ending freedom of movement. It would have solved some of the silly discussions happening now.
    Well I would argue that those things were said repeatedly by both sides during the campaign, but OK. Let's say you did that. By the same token, would it not have been necessary to include similar in the Remain vote? Making clear, for instance, by voting Remain, are you signing up for 'Ever Closer Union', the increasing movement of sovereignty away from Westminster and the future possibility of an EU military? After all, what's sauce for the goose...

  2. #52
    [QUOTE=Burney;4166801]
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post

    Well I would argue that those things were said repeatedly by both sides during the campaign, but OK. Let's say you did that. By the same token, would it not have been necessary to include similar in the Remain vote? Making clear, for instance, by voting Remain, are you signing up for 'Ever Closer Union', the increasing movement of sovereignty away from Westminster and the future possibility of an EU military? After all, what's sauce for the goose...
    Well the terms of remaining were far clearer than leaving but I take your point. I do think it would have been better to be slightly clearer about the leaving options before the vote, if not in the actual question. The problem was there was no organisation to speak for it, just a loose collection of political oddities and opportunists.

  3. #53
    [QUOTE=Peter;4166823]
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post

    Well the terms of remaining were far clearer than leaving but I take your point. I do think it would have been better to be slightly clearer about the leaving options before the vote, if not in the actual question. The problem was there was no organisation to speak for it, just a loose collection of political oddities and opportunists.
    There was an organisation to speak for it - they are called the Remain side and comprised the entire UK and much of the global political establishment. Everyone knew what it meant for FOM and everyone knew what it meant for single market membership because everyone on both sides made this explicitly clear. The difference was that the Remain side pitched these consequences as incentives to stay (Project Fear) whereas the leave side did the opposite.
    Last edited by Monty92; 06-26-2017 at 12:30 PM.

  4. #54
    [QUOTE=Monty92;4166833]
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post

    There was an organisation to speak for it - they are called the Remain side and comprised the entire UK and much of the global political establishment. Everyone knew what it meant for FOM and everyone knew what it meant for single market membership because everyone on both sides made this explicitly clear. The difference was that the Remain side pitched these consequences as incentives to stay (Project Fear) whereas the leave side did the opposite.
    Firstly, I thought it was obvious that I was saying there was no organisation to speak for the leave side. Exemplified by the fact that they walked away from the reference to NHS spending the morning after the vote and everybody claimed it was everybody else's idea to say it.

    Secondly, no, everybody did NOT know what the consequences were. Most of the people voting have no idea what free movement means or what the single market is. As obvious as it may seem to you there are millions of people who barely know what the EU is, and the belief that it is widely understood by all pitches your ignorance alongside theirs, only with far less excuse.

  5. #55
    [QUOTE=Peter;4166847]
    Quote Originally Posted by Monty92 View Post

    Firstly, I thought it was obvious that I was saying there was no organisation to speak for the leave side. Exemplified by the fact that they walked away from the reference to NHS spending the morning after the vote and everybody claimed it was everybody else's idea to say it.

    Secondly, no, everybody did NOT know what the consequences were. Most of the people voting have no idea what free movement means or what the single market is. As obvious as it may seem to you there are millions of people who barely know what the EU is, and the belief that it is widely understood by all pitches your ignorance alongside theirs, only with far less excuse.
    But this information was made available to them in perfectly accessible ways and by both sides. That they chose to vote in ignorance was their own choice.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Secondly, no, everybody did NOT know what the consequences were. Most of the people voting have no idea what free movement means or what the single market is. As obvious as it may seem to you there are millions of people who barely know what the EU is, and the belief that it is widely understood by all pitches your ignorance alongside theirs, only with far less excuse.
    That cuts both ways, too.

  7. #57
    [QUOTE=Monty92;4166848]
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post

    But this information was made available to them in perfectly accessible ways and by both sides. That they chose to vote in ignorance was their own choice.
    The majority of the electorate is as thick as mince 40% of the fúckers just voted for Corbyn, for fúck's sake. You couldn't educate them in less than 3 or 4 generations.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir C View Post
    The majority of the electorate is as thick as mince 40% of the fúckers just voted for Corbyn, for fúck's sake. You couldn't educate them in less than 3 or 4 generations.
    Thanks for that

  9. #59
    [QUOTE=Monty92;4166848]
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post

    But this information was made available to them in perfectly accessible ways and by both sides. That they chose to vote in ignorance was their own choice.
    Giving information doesn't help people understand something that is totally alien to them. Everybody is entitled to vote however they wish. The original point wasn't about overcoming ignorance, it was about asking a clearer question to avoid the sort of nonsense we are hearing now about what people voted for.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Ash View Post
    Thanks for that
    I know you're not thick, a. Indeed, you know that I know that you're not thick

    Have you listened to the average conversation on a train or bus recently? Ever taken a cab? The lumpen proletariat are, without doubt, as cows in a field, lowing only for their X Factor and cheap booze.

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