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Thread: :clap: The Boy Owen got there first.

  1. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Monty92 View Post
    Sorry, let me just be sure I know exactly what's actually happening here. You are disputing the idea that drinking can be, and often is, beneficial to individuals and groups, and that these benefits can be scientifically measured?

    My word. Ok, carry on?
    No. I am saying that the notion that those benefits necessarily make the world better is a value judgement that any scientists would run away from. And god almighty, do you really need me to run you through some of the catastrophic side effects of drinking? From alcoholism, domestic violence and the social cost of binge drinking in every town centre every weekend to the sheer cost of policing, the number of date rapes linked to alcohol etc etc etc.....

    Spend a Friday night in Newcastle and give me a ring at 3 in the morning. Lets see whether your hypothesis is still so unshakeable....

  2. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Also, you don't think our way of doing things has its victims? The child in the Cambodian sweat shop of the suicidal worker in the FoxConn tower might agree. We've just moved the problem out of sight and thus largely out of mind. The benefit you derive is affordable consumer goods and for that you're happy to trade off the misery of someone thousands of miles away. So your equality of opportunity and basic human rights schtick is pretty blinkered and hypocritical. What's more, plenty of people outside our comfy little bubble can see it.
    The essence of globalisation, in fact.
    "Plenty of strikers can score goals," he said, gesturing to the famous old stands casting shadows around us.

    "But a lot have found it difficult wearing the number 9 shirt for The Arsenal."

  3. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Ash View Post
    There's an argument that womens' ability to bear children makes them biologically superior. Only relatively few men and a load of test tubes are needed for the male contribution in that respect.

    I'm sure you don't tell your daughter that she's inferior.
    I don't judge my daughter scientifically, a.

    All I'm pointing out is that m's 'our society's belief system is scientifically-based' line is a pile of horseshít.

  4. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    I've no doubt such a cost-benefit analysis could justify lots of horrid things.
    That's deflection. The point is that Monty is actually correct in that you can find a scientific basis for pretty much everything if you look hard enough.

    Although quite why that is relevant to anything I have now forgotten.

    F*ck me, what was this thread about in the first place?

  5. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Ah. 'The' individual. Where does he live, then? Is he the wealthy slave trader or the poor, abused slave? Because he can't be both.

    To talk of 'the individual' is, by its nature, to talk of the collective since you are effectively taking an average of human happiness.

    Also, you don't think our way of doing things has its victims? The child in the Cambodian sweatshop or the suicidal worker in the FoxConn tower might not agree. We've just moved the problem out of sight and thus largely out of mind. The benefit you derive is affordable consumer goods and for that you're happy to trade off the misery of someone thousands of miles away. So your equality of opportunity and basic human rights schtick is pretty blinkered and hypocritical. What's more, plenty of people outside our comfy little bubble can see it.
    I expected some odd exchanges today but Burney morphing into Jeremy Corbyn is definitely a surprise

  6. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    No. I am saying that the notion that those benefits necessarily make the world better is a value judgement that any scientists would run away from. And god almighty, do you really need me to run you through some of the catastrophic side effects of drinking? From alcoholism, domestic violence and the social cost of binge drinking in every town centre every weekend to the sheer cost of policing, the number of date rapes linked to alcohol etc etc etc.....

    Spend a Friday night in Newcastle and give me a ring at 3 in the morning. Lets see whether your hypothesis is still so unshakeable....
    It's not catastrophic. Drinking is an overall benefit. All the people you're talking about there are gainfully employed, paying taxes and so on. After all, boozing isn't free, and neither is policing and social working and whatnot.
    "Plenty of strikers can score goals," he said, gesturing to the famous old stands casting shadows around us.

    "But a lot have found it difficult wearing the number 9 shirt for The Arsenal."

  7. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by World's End Stella View Post
    So if that was the magical solution that opened up university to all these students, why is it now 9 grand?
    Because loads of them started going, even some of the poor kids. The spoilt little ****s then started to demand good jobs when they left.

    Seriously, it was the financial crisis. It wasn't a great move, and that was Labour (Brown, not Blair, before you start).

  8. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by World's End Stella View Post
    That's deflection. The point is that Monty is actually correct in that you can find a scientific basis for pretty much everything if you look hard enough.

    Although quite why that is relevant to anything I have now forgotten.

    F*ck me, what was this thread about in the first place?
    It's not deflection. Such a purely utilitarian analysis would, for instance, almost certainly conclude that disabled children would be best off being euthanised. After all, they will only ever be a drain and never contribute. Do we do that? Of course not. Why? Because our belief system (which, whether m likes it or not, is still based on Judaeo-Christian lines) tells us that to do so would be abhorrent.

    However, my only point is that, while I am intensely glad that that is how we do things, trying to claim the reasoning behind it is scientific is nonsense.

  9. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Ah. 'The' individual. Where does he live, then? Is he the wealthy slave trader or the poor, abused slave? Because he can't be both.

    To talk of 'the individual' is, by its nature, to talk of the collective since you are effectively taking an average of human happiness.

    Also, you don't think our way of doing things has its victims? The child in the Cambodian sweat shop of the suicidal worker in the FoxConn tower might agree. We've just moved the problem out of sight and thus largely out of mind. The benefit you derive is affordable consumer goods and for that you're happy to trade off the misery of someone thousands of miles away. So your equality of opportunity and basic human rights schtick is pretty blinkered and hypocritical. What's more, plenty of people outside our comfy little bubble can see it.
    I've very intentionally not mentioned democracy or capitalism in any of my posts, yet your post makes it sound as if these have formed the bedrock of my argument. Not sure why you'v brought them up at all, to be honest. Basically I don't believe anything you've insinuated that I do in your post above.
    Last edited by Monty92; 05-23-2017 at 03:16 PM.

  10. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    I expected some odd exchanges today but Burney morphing into Jeremy Corbyn is definitely a surprise
    Yes, I've had my eye on B for some time
    "Plenty of strikers can score goals," he said, gesturing to the famous old stands casting shadows around us.

    "But a lot have found it difficult wearing the number 9 shirt for The Arsenal."

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