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Thread: :clap: The Boy Owen got there first.

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Monty92 View Post
    You're missing my point. To them, it is logical.

    To tell a muslim that it is illogical to blow themselves up in a crowd of unbelievers is akin to telling a mad person in the grips of a psychotic episode that the voices in their head are not real and they should just go home, have a nice cup of tea and get an early night.

    Except, thankfully, we don't need to do this with the overwhelming majority of muslims, because they have implicitly disavowed their faith.
    I'm not saying it is illogical because it is evil or mental. It is an act of faith or obedience, neither of which is arrived at through a logical thought process.

    The religious nut does his duty because he believes he has been instructed to do so, not because he has weighed the pros cons and consequences of the act and believes it is the only logical course of action.

    I get your point, its just the wrong word. And however you dress it up it remains an act of faith, however misguided.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by World's End Stella View Post
    I'm calling you on the 9/11 PhDs comment. 19 hijackers, so 10 or more had PhDs from legitimate universities, did they? I'm calling you a liar and will apologise if you have any credible evidence that this is true.

    I didn't say that all Islamists are disaffected or social outcasts, but I expect an awful lot of them are, certainly those who grew up in Britain. You'll note the number who were petty criminals prior to their 'conversion' to Islam.
    Now just hang on here.... what are we classing as a legitimate university?

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    I'm not saying it is illogical because it is evil or mental. It is an act of faith or obedience, neither of which is arrived at through a logical thought process.

    The religious nut does his duty because he believes he has been instructed to do so, not because he has weighed the pros cons and consequences of the act and believes it is the only logical course of action.

    I get your point, its just the wrong word. And however you dress it up it remains an act of faith, however misguided.
    I don't ever recall suggesting it was anything other than an act of faith.

    Is it very much the concept of faith that I would blame for this sorry saga above and beyond anything else.

    Faith is very silly, except where Arsene Wenger is concerned, natch.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Now just hang on here.... what are we classing as a legitimate university?
    Don't start
    "Plenty of strikers can score goals," he said, gesturing to the famous old stands casting shadows around us.

    "But a lot have found it difficult wearing the number 9 shirt for The Arsenal."

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Very true. By the same token, doing as you are instructed to do is not a logical act. It can be an act of obedience, of self-preservation, of belief. By definition it is derived not by any logical process but by instruction. Be it religious doctrine or voices in your head.
    Yes, but only if you look at it from a purely post-Enlightenment, rationalist standpoint in which religious belief is an optional extra rather than a given.

    To medieval man, God was real. No ifs, no buts. His nature may occasionally have been disputed, but never His existence or His authority. There was therefore nothing irrational about belief in God or adherence to His strictures. The fact is that Islamic culture and society still very much exist in the medieval paradigm in this sense. Indeed, a desire to take the world back to a pre-medieval state is very much to be desired as far as the likes of ISIS are concerned.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Ah, but not as much distance as there should be. It's actually a relatively short step from 'The kuffar are accepting Sharia as dictated by the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) in the Quran' to 'I must impose Sharia on the kuffar by my direct actions as required by the Quran'.

    Once you start to tolerate the craziness, it's the thin end of the wedge.
    Yes, I agree with that. And I would extend it to head covering, not allowing women out in public without a male companion etc etc

    If we win these battles, we will win the terrorism battle, eventually. The lack of political will to fight the small battles because of political correctness sickens me.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Now just hang on here.... what are we classing as a legitimate university?
    Something other than 'PhD in Islamic Studies from the Technical College of Islamabad'

    Or East Anglia Polytechnic, for that matter.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Monty92 View Post
    I don't ever recall suggesting it was anything other than an act of faith.

    Is it very much the concept of faith that I would blame for this sorry saga above and beyond anything else.

    Faith is very silly, except where Arsene Wenger is concerned, natch.
    Blind faith is a bit dangerous. Belief is fine.

    The broader point here is that it is unfair to hold one religion to its original incarnation. It is no more the fault of Islam that a particular group uses it scripture to justify this stuff than it is the fault of Judas Priest that some **** decides to shoot themselves in the face.

    Not that I am defending religion(s). They are all forms of mental illness.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Blind faith is a bit dangerous. Belief is fine.

    The broader point here is that it is unfair to hold one religion to its original incarnation. It is no more the fault of Islam that a particular group uses it scripture to justify this stuff than it is the fault of Judas Priest that some **** decides to shoot themselves in the face.

    Not that I am defending religion(s). They are all forms of mental illness.
    Gandhi and Einstein. Both mentally ill. Who knew?

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Yes, but only if you look at it from a purely post-Enlightenment, rationalist standpoint in which religious belief is an optional extra rather than a given.

    To medieval man, God was real. No ifs, no buts. His nature may occasionally have been disputed, but never His existence or His authority. There was therefore nothing irrational about belief in God or adherence to His strictures. The fact is that Islamic culture and society still very much exist in the medieval paradigm in this sense. Indeed, a desire to take the world back to a pre-medieval state is very much to be desired as far as the likes of ISIS are concerned.
    The logic doesn't extend beyond 'this is by definition true so I must do it'..... its not so much logical as mechanical.

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