Speaking of getting slaughtered, I went to the bull fighting in Sevilla on Saturday

[World's End Stella]

and quite an amazing experience it was.

The Spanish get all dressed up, as the English do for horse racing, and there was no shortage of talent about. The Spanish men smoke huge cigars in the stadium and shout all sorts of appreciative things which were beyond me.

But as a spectacle which was evocative of their culture it was exceptional. Thoroughly enjoyed it and would highly recommend it. Very interesting and lots of fun.

Less so for the bull, of course. But to paraphrase Burney, 'it's just a f*cking bull'.

Ole!

[Peter]

and quite an amazing experience it was.

The Spanish get all dressed up, as the English do for horse racing, and there was no shortage of talent about. The Spanish men smoke huge cigars in the stadium and shout all sorts of appreciative things which were beyond me.

But as a spectacle which was evocative of their culture it was exceptional. Thoroughly enjoyed it and would highly recommend it. Very interesting and lots of fun.

Less so for the bull, of course. But to paraphrase Burney, 'it's just a f*cking bull'.

Ole!

I can honestly say I would rather watch Arsenal.

[World's End Stella]

I can honestly say I would rather watch Arsenal.

Um, yeah, but unless you've been to the bull fighting you can't be sure, can you Peter?

[Burney]

and quite an amazing experience it was.

The Spanish get all dressed up, as the English do for horse racing, and there was no shortage of talent about. The Spanish men smoke huge cigars in the stadium and shout all sorts of appreciative things which were beyond me.

But as a spectacle which was evocative of their culture it was exceptional. Thoroughly enjoyed it and would highly recommend it. Very interesting and lots of fun.

Less so for the bull, of course. But to paraphrase Burney, 'it's just a f*cking bull'.

Ole!

I did the tour of the bullring when I was there, but had no interest in going to a bullfight. The thing that bothers me isn't so much the bull being tortured and dying (although going to watch that seems a bit weird to me) as the fact that it's not a fair fight in which the man and the bull have an equal chance of coming out dead. The game's loaded, so to me it's like turning up to a game between Barcelona and Runcorn Town every week.
Without the element of competition, it's just an atavistic ritual killing and I'm not really into that.

[Sir C]

I did the tour of the bullring when I was there, but had no interest in going to a bullfight. The thing that bothers me isn't so much the bull being tortured and dying (although going to watch that seems a bit weird to me) as the fact that it's not a fair fight in which the man and the bull have an equal chance of coming out dead. The game's loaded, so to me it's like turning up to a game between Barcelona and Runcorn Town every week.
Without the element of competition, it's just an atavistic ritual killing and I'm not really into that.

Anyone who enjoys watching an animal being tortured is quite clearly wrong in the head.

[Burney]

Anyone who enjoys watching an animal being tortured is quite clearly wrong in the head.

I dunno. I agree, of course, but am also conscious that to feel like that is a fairly recent phenomenon. Watching and enjoying the torture of animals has been a facet of human nature for a very, very long time. So, while we may find it abhorrent, we probably need to acknowledge that our abhorrence is the exception rather than the rule in human historical terms and is representative of a very specific set of cultural and societal mores.

I mean, they're obviously the right cultural and societal mores, but still.

[World's End Stella]

I did the tour of the bullring when I was there, but had no interest in going to a bullfight. The thing that bothers me isn't so much the bull being tortured and dying (although going to watch that seems a bit weird to me) as the fact that it's not a fair fight in which the man and the bull have an equal chance of coming out dead. The game's loaded, so to me it's like turning up to a game between Barcelona and Runcorn Town every week.
Without the element of competition, it's just an atavistic ritual killing and I'm not really into that.

Well, there's the skill of the matadors and the other chaps to appreciate, it seems this is primarily what the Spanish are there for.

And the 'torture' of the bull struck me as being overrated. They seem quite content charging around after the people in the ring, then when they tire the coup de gras is applied. Do they suffer anymore than most animals in abattoirs? I doubt there's much in it.

More importantly, it was very evocative of a very different culture from a very different time. It was like being in a museum, but what you are observing is live and in person. I found that aspect quite fascinating and would never judge it based on some modern day, sanitized view of the world.

That's just boring.

[Sir C]

I dunno. I agree, of course, but am also conscious that to feel like that is a fairly recent phenomenon. Watching and enjoying the torture of animals has been a facet of human nature for a very, very long time. So, while we may find it abhorrent, we probably need to acknowledge that our abhorrence is the exception rather than the rule in human historical terms and is representative of a very specific set of cultural and societal mores.

I mean, they're obviously the right cultural and societal mores, but still.

Well, yes, but for the majority of human history we've married 12 year old girls and burnt women for being suspected of witchcraft.

Would you say that an abhorrence for *****philia and burning women at the stake is simply 'the exception', and that those who enjoy such activities today are perfectly sound in the mind?

[Burney]

Well, there's the skill of the matadors and the other chaps to appreciate, it seems this is primarily what the Spanish are there for.

And the 'torture' of the bull struck me as being overrated. They seem quite content charging around after the people in the ring, then when they tire the coup de gras is applied. Do they suffer anymore than most animals in abattoirs? I doubt there's much in it.

More importantly, it was very evocative of a very different culture from a very different time. It was like being in a museum, but what you are observing is live and in person. I found that aspect quite fascinating and would never judge it based on some modern day, sanitized view of the world.

That's just boring.

I think when something is taking place in what is (nominally, at least) a modern, civilised, developed nation that has had all the benefits of the Enlightenment, it becomes valid to judge it by those standards. Maybe one can cut savages some slack because...well...they're savages, but if people want to tell me they are civilised, I will judge them by those standards.
Also, the issue is not so much the fact of the animal's suffering as the crowd's conscious decision to revel in that suffering. It is that I find disgusting.

Also, it's 'Coup de grâce', btw. What you wrote means 'blow of fat'.

[Burney]

Well, yes, but for the majority of human history we've married 12 year old girls and burnt women for being suspected of witchcraft.

Would you say that an abhorrence for *****philia and burning women at the stake is simply 'the exception', and that those who enjoy such activities today are perfectly sound in the mind?

I would agree that yes, we have moved on. I just don't think 'wrong in the head' is a helpful definition.
For instance, slavery has been a fact of human history for a lot longer than it hasn't and obviously I now find the idea abhorrent. However, I fight shy of moral judgement of those who grew up in very different times and circumstances and so do not subscribe to the automatic belief that slave traders were inherently evil because of what they did, preferring to try and see them in the context of their times.
Equally, do I think that Spaniards are inherently evil for enjoying bullfighting? No. I just think they're a bit ethically and culturally retarded to still do that sort of thing in the modern world. We are all products of our societies and cultures and to me, the love of bullfighting tells me that Spanish society and culture is a bit wrong.