The usual suspects signalling their virtue hard on facebook :hehe:

[Sir C]

Unfortunate cirmstances tend to arise from confusing party with country, namely dictatorship- or 'one party democracy' if you prefer.

But if you don't believe that your party is the best option for the country, you shouldn't be trying to achieve power, agreed? By the same token, if you believe that your party is the best option for the country, you have a duty to try to achieve power, surely?

[Peter]

But if you don't believe that your party is the best option for the country, you shouldn't be trying to achieve power, agreed? By the same token, if you believe that your party is the best option for the country, you have a duty to try to achieve power, surely?

Of course. The problem stems from believing that the interests of party and country are the same thing. Political parties are built to gain power, not to exercise it. So while it is May's job to run the country it is the Party Chairman's job to win the next election.

This was not her decision alone.

[Burney]

Unfortunate cirmstances tend to arise from confusing party with country, namely dictatorship- or 'one party democracy' if you prefer.

I don't seem to remember you chaps minding the old party über alles attitude back when you were in charge. You called it being 'on message', didn't you?

[Peter]

I don't seem to remember you chaps minding the old party über alles attitude back when you were in charge. You called it being 'on message', didn't you?

Not really sure what you mean.....

[Burney]

Of course. The problem stems from believing that the interests of party and country are the same thing. Political parties are built to gain power, not to exercise it. So while it is May's job to run the country it is the Party Chairman's job to win the next election.

This was not her decision alone.

But surely effective politics is predicated on the idea that the interests of party and country are the same thing? Otherwise you end up with Labour's situation, where the party takes a near-deliberate holiday from power in order to fight over what its different factions believe is best for it.

[Ash]

Of course. The problem stems from believing that the interests of party and country are the same thing. Political parties are built to gain power, not to exercise it. So while it is May's job to run the country it is the Party Chairman's job to win the next election.

This was not her decision alone.

I think there's a case to say that it is better for the country that the end of Brexit negotiations land in the middle of a term than close to the end.

[Ash]

But surely effective politics is predicated on the idea that the interests of party and country are the same thing? Otherwise you end up with Labour's situation, where the party takes a near-deliberate holiday from power in order to fight over what its different factions believe is best for it.

Labour has only achieved power in four decades by effectively being a centrist faction of the conservative party anyway. If conservative government (whichever party does it) is what the voters want then so be it.

[AFC East]

I imagine they would argue that what is best for the party best qualified to run the country is ipso facto what's best for the country.

I agree, they would argue that. I just don't believe it's true and I doubt they believe it's always true.

[Burney]

Not really sure what you mean.....

I mean that Labour had spent nearly 20 years getting itself into electable shape for what its leaders believed was best for the country and then spent much of its time in power ruthlessly enforcing internal party discipline in order to stay there - because they believed that was what was best for the country.

In other words, parties act in their best interests because (we must assume) they sincerely believe that is how they best serve the interests of the country.

[Peter]

But surely effective politics is predicated on the idea that the interests of party and country are the same thing? Otherwise you end up with Labour's situation, where the party takes a near-deliberate holiday from power in order to fight over what its different factions believe is best for it.

Effective politics, perhaps. Effective government, not so much. Difficult/unpopular decisions are frequently believed to be in the best interests of the country but rarely the party. The whole point of political spin is to make these unfavourable acts seem heroic/necessary/wise etc.....

This election has very little to do with the good of the country and is designed to capitalise on Labour's weakness to strengthen the government's hand over Brexit. Call it national interest if you like. It doesn't bother me either way, if I was her I would do it as well. Her only mistake was being so clear on her refusal to do it earlier. Makes her look a bit of a ****.