In London, who are the people protesting against President Trump?

[Monty92]

Aw Monty, you've gone and made me feel guilty by posting something nice and sensible in response to my rather offensive post.

I'm not going to apologise though because you're such a c*nt.

Yes that's all very nice, but it would be more useful if you confirmed your position on how much of our efforts to prevent jihadists should be focused on muslims, given that 100% of jihadists are muslims?

[World's End Stella]

No, it's head-in-the-clouds idiocy driven by a fundamentally misguided idea of what law enforcement bodies are there to achieve. You also don't believe it for a second.
Judging and policing are two different things. We should all be equal before the law, but we most certainly should not be equal before law enforcement bodies. Their job is to prevent and solve crime and that means looking where it is most likely to happen and at those people who are most likely to commit it. If law enforcement bodies behaved as you suggest, they would waste vast resources, crime rates would soar and their clear-up rates would plummet.

Seriously, though, why on earth am I arguing with someone who's already conceded his approach to crime prevention and policing makes no practical sense? Fückssake!

Oh I'd be the first to admit that my post was high level, head in the clouds, theoretical view only. In practice, there are times that we have to be more realistic and compromise the approach. But, equally, we need to be sensitive about how we conduct ourselves with respect to the definition of 'communities' and how we approach them.

As an example, would I support the public distribution of anti-terrorism pamphlets in areas which were predominantly Muslim? No, absolutely not as it leaves otherwise innocent people feeling stigmatized. Would I support a government program which sent representatives to mosques around the country in an attempt to understand the degree of radicalization within various communities and what we might be able to do to help address the issue? Absolutely.

Fine lines, Burney. I think my main point is that the definition of 'community' is one we need to be careful with, both the definition and how we use it.

[Burney]

Actually, I'm almost certain we both feel exactly the same way about the subject of racial/ethnic profiling - that it is a necessary evil, but must always be done in a sensitive, tactful and moderate way.

Because I do not believe you truly think we should be trying to stop jihadists by equally profiling non-muslims, given that 100% of jihadists are muslims

I'm sorry, but I have to take issue with you even calling it a 'necessary evil'. It's not an 'evil' in any way, shape or form. It's a necessity driven purely by a logic predicated on the best means of keeping the public at large safe from potential or actual offenders. There is no need for any apologetic language.

[Monty92]

I'm sorry, but I have to take issue with you even calling it a 'necessary evil'. It's not an 'evil' in any way, shape or form. It's a necessity driven purely by a logic predicated on the best means of keeping the public at large safe from potential or actual offenders. There is no need for any apologetic language.

The "evil" to which I refer was very specifically meant in regard to the stigmatisation of communities that profiling can often lead to. Otherwise, I agree with you entirely.

[Burney]

Oh I'd be the first to admit that my post was high level, head in the clouds, theoretical view only. In practice, there are times that we have to be more realistic and compromise the approach. But, equally, we need to be sensitive about how we conduct ourselves with respect to the definition of 'communities' and how we approach them.

As an example, would I support the public distribution of anti-terrorism pamphlets in areas which were predominantly Muslim? No, absolutely not as it leaves otherwise innocent people feeling stigmatized. Would I support a government program which sent representatives to mosques around the country in an attempt to understand the degree of radicalization within various communities and what we might be able to do to help address the issue? Absolutely.

Fine lines, Burney. I think my main point is that the definition of 'community' is one we need to be careful with, both the definition and how we use it.

If someone's response when it is pointed out that there is a group of people within their locality and ethnic group who represent a clear and present terrorist danger to the public is to whine about feeling 'stigmatised' rather than think 'Well, we should do everything possible to aid the police in rooting them out because I don't want that sort of person being seen as having anything to do with me', I'd say that neatly illustrates the fundamental problem. Namely, that they put their carefully-nurtured sense of grievance ahead of the safety of their fellow citizens.

If that's the case, fûck their stigma, fück their feelings, fûck them.

[World's End Stella]

I'm sorry, but I have to take issue with you even calling it a 'necessary evil'. It's not an 'evil' in any way, shape or form. It's a necessity driven purely by a logic predicated on the best means of keeping the public at large safe from potential or actual offenders. There is no need for any apologetic language.

Prejudging how an individual is likely to behave based on his race or religion is an evil, Burney, albeit a potentially necessary one as Monty says.

I don't believe for a second you can't see the downside to it.

[World's End Stella]

If someone's response when it is pointed out that there is a group of people within their locality and ethnic group who represent a clear and present terrorist danger to the public is to whine about feeling 'stigmatised' rather than think 'Well, we should do everything possible to aid the police in rooting them out because I don't want that sort of person being seen as having anything to do with me', I'd say that neatly illustrates the fundamental problem. Namely, that they put their carefully-nurtured sense of grievance ahead of the safety of their fellow citizens.

If that's the case, fûck their stigma, fück their feelings, fûck them.

So, if the government required all heterosexual men to attend rape awareness courses your attitude would be 'well, people of my sex and sexual orientation are almost entirely responsible for rape so it really makes sense for me to attend the course so that we can understand why men rape women and work with the authorities to try and eliminate it'.

Yeah, course you would.

[SWv2]

So you think the authorities should stop focusing greater attention on mosques than other places of worship in their efforts to root out extremists? In other words, you disagree with the current policies in this regard?

A clever Allan terrorist would not be hanging around mosques.

[Burney]

Prejudging how an individual is likely to behave based on his race or religion is an evil, Burney, albeit a potentially necessary one as Monty says.

I don't believe for a second you can't see the downside to it.

No-one is pre-judging. We are merely talking about weighing the balance of probabilities in order to narrow the search, not waste time and give one the best possible chance of stopping crime in the shortest time possible. Because stopping crime is good, you see?
If there's a rape case, I'm not going to waste my time DNA testing female subjects or gay men. Equally, if I've got intelligence of an Islamic terror plot, I'm not going to waste my time questioning the Chinese community. Nothing 'evil' about that.

[Burney]

So, if the government required all heterosexual men to attend rape awareness courses your attitude would be 'well, people of my sex and sexual orientation are almost entirely responsible for rape so it really makes sense for me to attend the course so that we can understand why men rape women and work with the authorities to try and eliminate it'.

Yeah, course you would.

Hardly comparable. If I knew or suspected a man I knew was a rapist or heard someone exhorting men to commit rape, I'd contact the police immediately. Do muslims do the same vis-a-vis radicalised young men or radicalising preachers? No, I'm afraid that in many cases they do not.