So anyone visit a Mosque yesterday?

[Burney]

That's really blinkered, judgmental thinking there, Burney. There are many ways to solve this problem that don't involve an Islamic Reformation.

'Solve the problem'? Muslims have been trying to subjugate the west since 711 because that's what they do. Having a nice chat about Allah over tea and biccies ain't changing that.
You're just another nice, well-meaning chap who thinks that by behaving nicely and being well-meaning, we can 'solve the problem' of a religion that explicitly demands spiritual, cultural, temporal and legal sway over whatever space it occupies and whose values are antithetical to our society.

[Burney]

Yes. A big, massive mosque nearly the size of the nearby London Hospital between Fieldgate Street and Whitechapel Rd, and a teeny little kike-cave next to it. Face it, bud. Fùck off to Hendon, East London is theirs.

Having a religion that rejects the idea of evangelism and frowns on converts does mean you're generally going to lose a battle of numbers, though, doesn't it?

[World's End Stella]

Take a look at the teachings and precepts of Islam. It is predicated not on co-existence but on ruthless dominance and spiritual and cultural hegemony. The idea that they even want to get along peacefully with us is arrant nonsense. They want us subjugated and preferably converted. Why? Because that is what their religion explicitly demands.

You think that all Muslims want this? Every last one of them? And what if, in fact, it was a very small minority that wanted this, would that be relevant to the discussion and any possible solution?

[IUFG]

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

"Sugar?"

[Monty92]

Surely improving communication with our Muslim communities is the first step towards some form of 'reform' of the attitudes that are prevalent within their communities that lead to conflict? Even if it is a token gesture, it still seems like a good first step and is certainly better than doing nothing.

And the I reject the idea that we need an Islamic reformation in order to address the current issues. There are rather a lot of Muslims who have no issue at all reconciling their religion with life in a secular democracy. We don't need a reformation, we just need to encourage those voices to become more prevalent. Improving communication is crucial to this, communication and understanding.

The problem is that Muslim communities will only accept communication when it is on their terms. Look at how Muslim communities responded to the ‘Prevent’ programme as the perfect example of this. They even set up their own anti-extremist policies because ours weren’t to their liking.

Any criticism or suggestion that any fault lies within the communities themselves sparks a campaign of demonization led by the usual roll-call of apologists and Islamist sympathisers. Even the best-intentioned Muslim reformers like Majid Nawaz, who do exactly as you say and encourage other moderates to speak out, are castigated as Uncle Toms.

I believe an event such as this helps to validate those with no interest in affecting the changes required to bring Islam in line with western values and allows them to play non-Muslims off against each other. They will point to those who attended as the enlightened, open-minded souls who are willing to confront their prejudices head on and then point at everyone else with the temerity to speak critically about Islam and say “Islamophobes”.

[World's End Stella]

'Solve the problem'? Muslims have been trying to subjugate the west since 711 because that's what they do. Having a nice chat about Allah over tea and biccies ain't changing that.
You're just another nice, well-meaning chap who thinks that by behaving nicely and being well-meaning, we can 'solve the problem' of a religion that explicitly demands spiritual, cultural, temporal and legal sway over whatever space it occupies and whose values are antithetical to our society.

Really? I had no idea. Quite the eye opener that is. I guess I missed the ongoing threat to the west from Islamic terrorism that was so prevalent throughout the 20th century. There was me thinking that hardly anyone knew or cared about it pre 9/11.

Amazing what you learn on AWIMB.

[Monty92]

You think that all Muslims want this? Every last one of them? And what if, in fact, it was a very small minority that wanted this, would that be relevant to the discussion and any possible solution?

A "very small minority"? Have you seen the polling numbers on British Muslim attitudes to free speech, gay rights, women's rights, etc. But we are also presently welcoming millions onto the continent from societies in which gays are executed and women stoned to death for being raped and whose birth rates are many times those of European indigenous populations. Where is that going to take us?

[Sir C]

Really? I had no idea. Quite the eye opener that is. I guess I missed the ongoing threat to the west from Islamic terrorism that was so prevalent throughout the 20th century. There was me thinking that hardly anyone knew or cared about it pre 9/11.

Amazing what you learn on AWIMB.

Eh? Did I dream the minor incident at the Munich Olympics, the regular hijackings during the 1970s, US embassy bombings, Lockerbie, WPC wossname getting shot ona london street, the first WTC attack... on the morning of 9/11 there was only one likely perp, wasn't there?

[Ash]

Really? I had no idea. Quite the eye opener that is. I guess I missed the ongoing threat to the west from Islamic terrorism that was so prevalent throughout the 20th century. There was me thinking that hardly anyone knew or cared about it pre 9/11.

Amazing what you learn on AWIMB.

It's been an ongoing struggle in the Balkans for hundreds of years, WES. Including the 20th century.

[World's End Stella]

The problem is that Muslim communities will only accept communication when it is on their terms. Look at how Muslim communities responded to the ‘Prevent’ programme as the perfect example of this. They even set up their own anti-extremist policies because ours weren’t to their liking.

Any criticism or suggestion that any fault lies within the communities themselves sparks a campaign of demonization led by the usual roll-call of apologists and Islamist sympathisers. Even the best-intentioned Muslim reformers like Majid Nawaz, who do exactly as you say and encourage other moderates to speak out, are castigated as Uncle Toms.

I believe an event such as this helps to validate those with no interest in affecting the changes required to bring Islam in line with western values and allows them to play non-Muslims off against each other. They will point to those who attended as the enlightened, open-minded souls who are willing to confront their prejudices head on and then point at everyone else with the temerity to speak critically about Islam and say “Islamophobes”.

That's some pretty serious pigeon-holing you're doing there Monty, combined with some pretty astonishing generalisations and sweeping assumptions.

There is a fundamental issue within our Muslim communities, there is no question about that. This problem is rooted to some extent in their religion and to some extent in the culture of the communities aboard in which many of them were raised. The extent to which it is either isn't really important because either way the solution is to engage in a positive way with these communities and encourage them to find a way reconcile their religious views and cultural experiences with life in a secular democracy.

You and Burney seem to think that all Muslims want to destroy our way of life because Islam teaches them to do so. Given that, I'd be curious as to what you think the solution is that doesn't involve improved communication.