Looking at all these protests I am struck by the thought that there are few more

[World's End Stella]

That was the banter of the thing though. The fact that he's a millionaire playboy business celebrity going back decades means he most certainly *is* establishment, so his behaviour was crucial in ensuring he alone avoided that charge.

I should have said 'political establishment', as Trump is, ironically, about as 'establishment' as it gets.

[redgunamo]

It's a true measure of what a dismal campaign it has been on both sides, that so little has been discussed about foreign policy, and so little is known about where they stand and what they have done. But then I gather Hillary made the call to focus on Trump's personality, rather than the political issues.

The points about Trump's policies on Russia and Saudi Arabia could be found, amongst other places, on the BBC website yesterday.

Trump's America is sick of foreign policy by this time. Much of it has no money and no future and kids to feed.

[redgunamo]

Trump's America is sick of foreign policy by this time. Much of it has no money and no future and kids to feed.

Again, that wouldn't be enough; this election has proved once and for all that they're all in it together. Politics, business, media, academia. Even government itself. And none of them give a damn about Trump's Forgotten People, who needed them to reject him as conformation that he was with *them*. If you follow me.

[redgunamo]

I think that his ability to upset liberals may have persuaded the likes of you and I to vote for him. But it wasn't the likes of you and I that got him elected. For the demographic that won it for him, phrases like "identity politics" mean absolutely nothing.

I think anyone who rocked up and gave it tough talk about immigration, terrorism and smashing the corrupt elites had a good chance of winning against Clinton. And they didn't necessarily need to be a dribbling, gratuitously offensive cretin who ridicules disabled journalists in public and admits to sexually assaulting women.

Anyway, you're forgetting that it's really only the *progressive* esatablishment that's been scattered to the four winds. The Republican party elite is in better and more powerful shape than it's been in a century.

[eastgermanautos]

Anyway, you're forgetting that it's really only the *progressive* esatablishment that's been scattered to the four winds. The Republican party elite is in better and more powerful shape than it's been in a century.

I doubt that that's the case. The republicans do have a head of steam, and success breeds success. I think some sort of quasi-Apartheid system is what we'll get. It's a white minority looking to hold on to their ancient privileges. Kind of like South Africa. They'll set up some sort of Byzantine legal instrument for keeping minorities (now or else soon the majority of the population) in check. Thus will American sacrifice whatever moral equity it had banked in the 20th century. These things happen. Sh!t sucks. But yes, in response to your earlier post, Hillary did blow it. Somewhere -- in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, these sorts of places, they allowed the canker to grow, unchecked.

[redgunamo]

I doubt that that's the case. The republicans do have a head of steam, and success breeds success. I think some sort of quasi-Apartheid system is what we'll get. It's a white minority looking to hold on to their ancient privileges. Kind of like South Africa. They'll set up some sort of Byzantine legal instrument for keeping minorities (now or else soon the majority of the population) in check. Thus will American sacrifice whatever moral equity it had banked in the 20th century. These things happen. Sh!t sucks. But yes, in response to your earlier post, Hillary did blow it. Somewhere -- in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, these sorts of places, they allowed the canker to grow, unchecked.

I know South Africa, some of my people are from down there. They've always made good money, done alright. A quasi-Apartheid system is what America's had for decades anyway. It's just that nobody cares to notice it, unless the pay is decent.

Real difference is, you guys are rich whereas South Africa is dirt poor. Trump's Americans never minded other people having money but they refused to tolerate being bantered off by so-called Elites trying to drown them while pretending to give them a bath, as the man said.

In a normal election they wouldn't have bothered, I think. Trump gave them a tangible reason to bother.

It's all a bit like Leicester City winning the league because their rivals underperform.

[eastgermanautos]

I know South Africa, some of my people are from down there. They've always made good money, done alright. A quasi-Apartheid system is what America's had for decades anyway. It's just that nobody cares to notice it, unless the pay is decent.

Real difference is, you guys are rich whereas South Africa is dirt poor. Trump's Americans never minded other people having money but they refused to tolerate being bantered off by so-called Elites trying to drown them while pretending to give them a bath, as the man said.

In a normal election they wouldn't have bothered, I think. Trump gave them a tangible reason to bother.

It's all a bit like Leicester City winning the league because their rivals underperform.

This "we were already living in squalor, yet did not acknowledge it" argument is not really accurate. There's a huge divide in this country between the coasts and the flyovers. If you've been living on the coasts the past few years it's been fvcking great. Duddn't matter if you're white. brown, or yellow. The lumpens out there in the middle have been sucking on fumes all right. I thought we could keep them down for another four years, but apparently not...

[redgunamo]

This "we were already living in squalor, yet did not acknowledge it" argument is not really accurate. There's a huge divide in this country between the coasts and the flyovers. If you've been living on the coasts the past few years it's been fvcking great. Duddn't matter if you're white. brown, or yellow. The lumpens out there in the middle have been sucking on fumes all right. I thought we could keep them down for another four years, but apparently not...

South Africa is lovely, only the parts they show on television could be called squalid. My teenage son's posh Paris apartment is far more seedy and unsalubrious. Call it a "huge divide", if you like.

The whole point about living in a civilised country like yours is no-one has to care who their government is (everybody can make their own way regardless), so most people you see don't actually mind one way or the other.

The wife and I spent part of the Summer in West Texas. Then up through Chicago and Detroit and back home through Maine. Meeting people, you know. Holidays. As the lady said, what difference, at this point, does it make. Well, now you know, it makes no difference at all, until a Donald Trump comes along.