'Feminists' are planning a protest about the Burkini ban in France

[Burney]

:throwsinarandompicture: :walksawaywhistling:

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Difference is that I don't think anyone has coerced a nun into her vocation for at least a couple of centuries, c.

[TheCurly]

Difference is that I don't think anyone has coerced a nun into her vocation for at least a couple of centuries, c.

I know-I was jesting.Personally in Islamic countries I don't think it's our "fight" but in Western countries if they make it illegal then that's just that.Obey the law of the land and all that.

[Monty92]

Would you legally force women to go topless on a beach, even if it might reflect your personal aesthetic preferences? Or would you respect their choice to wear what they choose? This isn't about face-covering, which is a completely different matter.

Nothing wrong with this outfit imo:



OTOH there is to my mind definitely something wrong with a law that forces women to take off their clothes.

Where is there a law that forces women to take off their clothes?

[Monty92]

Of course it isn't the biggest problem. However, it is an attempt to undermine muslim men's control over their womenfolk by making it clear that the law will not tolerate it. It is an attack on a clear symbol of patriarchal oppression and thus on the whole system of oppression that is inherent to Islam. As things stand, Islamic women's bodies are controlled by Islamic men. This is an attempt to wrest that control away from them and thus undermine their social control.
Your argument presupposes that these women have entire agency over how they dress. They do not. By conditioning, coercion and threat they are forced into this ridiculous garb from the time they hit puberty to allow their families and later their husbands to control them. An entire culture is busy keeping these women dressed like this and the only agency with the power to help these women escape these bonds is the state, which by its nature can only do it by heavy-handed means.
The fact is that these women's bodies are a battleground in a war between western, liberal culture and regressive, patriarchal Islam. Of course we all would wish that these women would simply be allowed to dress as they wish, but as things stand, they are being forced to dress a certain way by the regressive, patriarchal Islamic culture. If it's a binary choice (and it is) between that and being forced to dress a certain way by western culture, I would prefer the latter.
Up to now we have allowed Islam to retain often brutal control over its womenfolk and not insisted upon our cultural norms. As it becomes clear that Islam won't compromise, that is changing and the west is starting to wake up to the fact that if we don't insist on our way of doing things, we will be washed away.
Of course armed men forcing a woman to remove clothes makes for bad optics. We all agree that it is not desirable to force our norms upon people, but if those people refuse to assimilate and that refusal becomes problematic to the point of violence and terrorism, then no choice is left. To quibble about the optics of the situation is to miss the bigger point.

I'm with you all the way on this, of course, but no-one "forced" that woman (who I have seen suggested was a plant, given that she had absolutely no beach paraphernalia with her) to remove clothes. She could have left the beach.

[Burney]

I'm with you all the way on this, of course, but no-one "forced" that woman (who I have seen suggested was a plant, given that she had absolutely no beach paraphernalia with her) to remove clothes. She could have left the beach.

It certainly looked like a demonstration, I agree. All the hand-wringers seem to ignore the fact that she must have known the law (fûckssake, I know the law and I live in England) and did it anyway.

[Burney]

I'm with you all the way on this, of course, but no-one "forced" that woman (who I have seen suggested was a plant, given that she had absolutely no beach paraphernalia with her) to remove clothes. She could have left the beach.

This, basically

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[Monty92]

This, basically

Cqs7UWyXYAAlLVd.jpg

I guess the question is whether the opposing French bans on burkinis while challenging the mindset of those who support burkini is the more sensible approach.

[Burney]

I guess the question is whether the opposing French bans on burkinis while challenging the mindset of those who support burkini is the more sensible approach.

Persuasion of these people doesn't work. They're not interested. There has to be a direct legal obstacle to these behaviours. A literal line in the sand, if you will.

[Ash]

I'm with you all the way on this, of course, but no-one "forced" that woman (who I have seen suggested was a plant, given that she had absolutely no beach paraphernalia with her) to remove clothes. She could have left the beach.

And returned to the beach with less clothes, presumably. This is not the same as the discussion about burkas and niqabs. There are women who prefer to dress modestly who are not muslims and who are not forced to do so by the social pressures of a religion.

I am not convinved that removing certain civil freedoms for a members of a specific religion is the way to deal with the challenge that religion poses for western culture, but while there is a case for restrictions against burkas and niqabs, the beach is not the place for that battle. On the contrary, in a time where it feels that muslims and non-muslims inhabit seperate universes, public spaces which which we can all enjoy together are a good thing.

[Monty92]

And returned to the beach with less clothes, presumably. This is not the same as the discussion about burkas and niqabs. There are women who prefer to dress modestly who are not muslims and who are not forced to do so by the social pressures of a religion.

I am not convinved that removing certain civil freedoms for a members of a specific religion is the way to deal with the challenge that religion poses for western culture, but while there is a case for restrictions against burkas and niqabs, the beach is not the place for that battle. On the contrary, in a time where it feels that muslims and non-muslims inhabit seperate universes, public spaces which which we can all enjoy together are a good thing.

I think the strongest defence of the ban (which, unless I'm mistaken, has so far only been put into force in two French towns) has been made by Berni and the Economist quote I posted earlier, and relies on the argument that the threat from political Islam is sufficiently grave that civil liberties must suffer while we get to grips with it.

This is just about convincing enough for me, Clive. After all, I assume you don't object to profiling?