Is Theresa May really going to spend the next six weeks repeating the terms 'strong

and stable leadership' and 'coalition of chaos' every ****ing day??

This really is going to be a very tedious election indeed.

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Originally Posted by Peter

and stable leadership' and 'coalition of chaos' every ****ing day??

This really is going to be a very tedious election indeed.

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In fairness, she doesn't need to say much else

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Originally Posted by Peter

and stable leadership' and 'coalition of chaos' every ****ing day??

This really is going to be a very tedious election indeed.

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**** off peter ;-)

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Originally Posted by Peter

and stable leadership' and 'coalition of chaos' every ****ing day??

This really is going to be a very tedious election indeed.

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It's called "staying on message", isn't it. I don't recall which clowns coined the term :-)

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Originally Posted by Peter

and stable leadership' and 'coalition of chaos' every ****ing day??

This really is going to be a very tedious election indeed.

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Aren't all elections tedious?

Don't know why they don't just call an election and then vote about 2 days later. Does anybody really change their vote during the life of a campaign?

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Originally Posted by SWv2

Aren't all elections tedious?

Don't know why they don't just call an election and then vote about 2 days later. Does anybody really change their vote during the life of a campaign?

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Believe that it's more about persuading people that don't typically vote to cast a vote in the campaigner's favour.

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Originally Posted by Rich

Believe that it's more about persuading people that don't typically vote to cast a vote in the campaigner's favour.

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For once you make a decent and valid point Dick, however if these people are so gullible as to believe the claims or promises of a politician then surely there is an argument they should not be allowed to vote.

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Originally Posted by Rich

Believe that it's more about persuading people that don't typically vote to cast a vote in the campaigner's favour.

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More than that. It is about the notion (not currently fashionable, I admit) that people should and can make up their own minds on the basis of discussion and debate, and that political decisions that affect people's lives can be made on this basis.

Party loyalty is always a big factor, but so are floating voters who consider each campaign on its own merits. Judging May in May, as it were.

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Originally Posted by SWv2

For once you make a decent and valid point Dick, however if these people are so gullible as to believe the claims or promises of a politician then surely there is an argument they should not be allowed to vote.

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The problem, I believe, with this level of cynicism is that it taps into the prevalent notion that people are stupid and shouldn't be allowed to vote - as we saw in the fury following the EU referendum. The alternative is to be ruled forever by 'experts' and technocrats who claim to know what is best for other people.

A analogy could be made, if you will forgive me, to the view of Monty (and others) that football fans are too stupid to be allowed into the ground where their lack of understanding of the game, and possibly vocal pronouncements on that basis, can only damage the outcome of the match.

British poltitics once consisted of solely of the whims of a King. Slowly over the centuries power was wrested down the ladder, and now everyone has a vote. I believe this is not something that should be given away.

Democracy In!

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Originally Posted by Ash

The problem, I believe, with this level of cynicism is that it taps into the prevalent notion that people are stupid and shouldn't be allowed to vote - as we saw in the fury following the EU referendum. The alternative is to be ruled forever by 'experts' and technocrats who claim to know what is best for other people.

A analogy could be made, if you will forgive me, to the view of Monty (and others) that football fans are too stupid to be allowed into the ground where their lack of understanding of the game, and possibly vocal pronouncements on that basis, can only damage the outcome of the match.

British poltitics once consisted of solely of the whims of a King. Slowly over the centuries power was wrested down the ladder, and now everyone has a vote. I believe this is not something that should be given away.

Democracy In!

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Hang on, you're not actually denying that people are generally stupid, or, more specific to the topic being discussed, insufficiently engaged with politics to make informed voting decisions, are you? In fact I know many people who are engaged with politics who I believe are ill-equipped to make informed decisions - and I'd count myself among them (which is partly why I don't vote).

Where you are wrong is assuming that believing this (as I do and as I believe you do, if you are being honest) does not necessarily mean we think democracy itself is a bad idea. It could simply mean that we believe democracy is great (albeit flawed) in spite of the fact that most of the people charged with deciding who controls it at any given time are stupid.

Equally, with football fans, yes I absolutely believe they are too stupid for their opinions to have any credibility or worth in terms of their actual substance, but I also recognise that without them football would be nothing and that therefore their freedom to attend matches and, alas, to voice their cretinious opinions, should and must be protected.

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Originally Posted by Ash

Judging May in May, as it were.

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Excellent.

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Excellent.

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Yes, I meant to say, good work there Ash.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

Hang on, you're not actually denying that people are generally stupid, or, more specific to the topic being discussed, insufficiently engaged with politics to make informed voting decisions, are you? In fact I know many people who are engaged with politics who I believe are ill-equipped to make informed decisions - and I'd count myself among them (which is partly why I don't vote).

Where you are wrong is assuming that believing this (as I do and as I believe you do, if you are being honest) does not necessarily mean we think democracy itself is a bad idea. It could simply mean that we believe democracy is great (albeit flawed) in spite of the fact that most of the people charged with deciding who controls it at any given time are stupid.

Equally, with football fans, yes I absolutely believe they are too stupid for their opinions to have any credibility or worth in terms of their actual substance, but I also recognise that without them football would be nothing and that therefore their freedom to attend matches and, alas, to voice their cretinious opinions, should and must be protected.

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How do you view yourself in this respect?

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Originally Posted by SWv2

How do you view yourself in this respect?

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I think I can occasionally have some decent insights, but that's more due to the way my brain works rather than any specialist knowledge. When it comes to the latter, I think I'm pretty mediocre, albeit above the mean, I would hope.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

Hang on, you're not actually denying that people are generally stupid, or, more specific to the topic being discussed, insufficiently engaged with politics to make informed voting decisions, are you? In fact I know many people who are engaged with politics who I believe are ill-equipped to make informed decisions - and I'd count myself among them (which is partly why I don't vote).

Where you are wrong is assuming that believing this (as I do and as I believe you do, if you are being honest) does not necessarily mean we think democracy itself is a bad idea. It could simply mean that we believe democracy is great (albeit flawed) in spite of the fact that most of the people charged with deciding who controls it at any given time are stupid.

Equally, with football fans, yes I absolutely believe they are too stupid for their opinions to have any credibility or worth in terms of their actual substance, but I also recognise that without them football would be nothing and that therefore their freedom to attend matches and, alas, to voice their cretinious opinions, should and must be protected.

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People are not God. They cannot see all ends.

To recognise this is not to consider them stupid, as much as you would like us both to share your misanthropy. A person of low education from Stoke might have an intuitive understanding of how political power should be distributed that, in my opinion, could be superior to the view of a university professor who insists that she, as a highly intelligent and educated expert, knows best and that the best thing is for people like them to decide the law of the land.

On another level, if a Surrey stockbroker always votes Tory purely because he believes it is in his interests, while a west Cumbrian ship-builder always votes Labour purely because she believes it is in her interests, then so be it. Better that they care little for the detail of the policies but have their say, than for them to have no say at all.

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Originally Posted by Ash

People are not God. They cannot see all ends.

To recognise this is not to consider them stupid, as much as you would like us both to share your misanthropy. A person of low education from Stoke might have an intuitive understanding of how political power should be distributed that, in my opinion, could be superior to the view of a university professor who insists that she, as a highly intelligent and educated expert, knows best and that the best thing is for people like them to decide the law of the land.

On another level, if a Surrey stockbroker always votes Tory purely because he believes it is in his interests, while a west Cumbrian ship-builder always votes Labour purely because she believes it is in her interests, then so be it. Better that they care little for the detail of the policies but have their say, than for them to have no say at all.

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I agree that instinct and intuition can be valuable commodities within the marketplace of ideas and that entrenched ideology often pollutes the thinking of educated 'clever' people.

But I'm not sure exactly what you are disagreeing with. If you break down my point, it is simply that current levels of intelligence and engagement are sub-optimal, and it would be better if people were smarter and more informed.

I know they are mere snapshots during which people are asked for their opinions off-guard, but you must have noticed that TV vox pops never manage to find anyone with anything remotely original or insightful to say?

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Originally Posted by Monty92

I agree that instinct and intuition can be valuable commodities within the marketplace of ideas and that entrenched ideology often pollutes the thinking of educated 'clever' people.

But I'm not sure exactly what you are disagreeing with. If you break down my point, it is simply that current levels of intelligence and engagement are sub-optimal, and it would be better if people were smarter and more informed.

I know they are mere snapshots during which people are asked for their opinions off-guard, but you must have noticed that TV vox pops never manage to find anyone with anything remotely original or insightful to say?

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That's television doe, innit. The Idiot Box, Michael Mann calls it, and he would know better than most.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

I agree that instinct and intuition can be valuable commodities within the marketplace of ideas and that entrenched ideology often pollutes the thinking of educated 'clever' people.

But I'm not sure exactly what you are disagreeing with. If you break down my point, it is simply that current levels of intelligence and engagement are sub-optimal, and it would be better if people were smarter and more informed.

I know they are mere snapshots during which people are asked for their opinions off-guard, but you must have noticed that TV vox pops never manage to find anyone with anything remotely original or insightful to say?

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I think the essential thing I am disagreeing with is your misanthropy. Look, there's nothing wrong with you aspiring to a higher level of political engagement, where engagement is defined in terms of an intelligent, balanced, nuanced, informed* analysis. I would like that too but I don't tip back the other way and decry everyone as stupid because the level of engagement is not as high as it might be.

The thing is, I know plenty of people who consider themselves smart and informed, but who I often disagree with when it comes to political outlook, largely because their primary source of information* is The Guardian. :shrug:

* A problem for me is a lack of balance and breadth in the range of views discussed in the most highly-consumed media sources.

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Originally Posted by Ash

People are not God. They cannot see all ends.

To recognise this is not to consider them stupid, as much as you would like us both to share your misanthropy. A person of low education from Stoke might have an intuitive understanding of how political power should be distributed that, in my opinion, could be superior to the view of a university professor who insists that she, as a highly intelligent and educated expert, knows best and that the best thing is for people like them to decide the law of the land.

On another level, if a Surrey stockbroker always votes Tory purely because he believes it is in his interests, while a west Cumbrian ship-builder always votes Labour purely because she believes it is in her interests, then so be it. Better that they care little for the detail of the policies but have their say, than for them to have no say at all.

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The less say, the better, I think. In a civilised country, people ought to have better things to think about than who runs the country.

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Originally Posted by Ash

I think the essential thing I am disagreeing with is your misanthropy. Look, there's nothing wrong with you aspiring to a higher level of political engagement, where engagement is defined in terms of an intelligent, balanced, nuanced, informed* analysis. I would like that too but I don't tip back the other way and decry everyone as stupid because the level of engagement is not as high as it might be.

The thing is, I know plenty of people who consider themselves smart and informed, but who I often disagree with when it comes to political outlook, largely because their primary source of information* is The Guardian. :shrug:

* A problem for me is a lack of balance and breadth in the range of views discussed in the most highly-consumed media sources.

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Although, bemoaning the absence of debate is a good way to avoid showing youself up by actually engaging in one.

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

The less say, the better, I think. In a civilised country, people ought to have better things to think about than who runs the country.

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Like who runs their football team?

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Originally Posted by Ash

Like who runs their football team?

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Yes, precisely. That's of far more real import.

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Originally Posted by Ash

I think the essential thing I am disagreeing with is your misanthropy. Look, there's nothing wrong with you aspiring to a higher level of political engagement, where engagement is defined in terms of an intelligent, balanced, nuanced, informed* analysis. I would like that too but I don't tip back the other way and decry everyone as stupid because the level of engagement is not as high as it might be.

The thing is, I know plenty of people who consider themselves smart and informed, but who I often disagree with when it comes to political outlook, largely because their primary source of information* is The Guardian. :shrug:

* A problem for me is a lack of balance and breadth in the range of views discussed in the most highly-consumed media sources.

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You can't disagree with misanthropy. It may simply be that my sensibilities are offended by stupidity more than yours.

I don't believe that you genuinely feel that most people are not stupid. We both engage in the real world every day and we will both have developed reliable techniques for discerning the levels of intelligence of people that we meet. Sometimes we will underestimate or overestimate, but generally our instincts will not be far off the mark.

It is blindingly obvious that most people do not place importance on the critical thinking required to be a truly intelligent person (beyond IQ and General Intelligence) and instead focus their attentions on other things, some of which are of great value both to themselves and others and some that are not.

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Although, bemoaning the absence of debate is a good way to avoid showing youself up by actually engaging in one.

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Is this about me not elucidating on why Wenger's still the man for the job? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Monty92

Where you are wrong is assuming that believing this (as I do and as I believe you do, if you are being honest) does not necessarily mean we think democracy itself is a bad idea. It could simply mean that we believe democracy is great (albeit flawed) in spite of the fact that most of the people charged with deciding who controls it at any given time are stupid.

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If that is your genuine belief then you should vote. Stupid.

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

If that is your genuine belief then you should vote. Stupid.

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I know I should. But I'm just one person and my vote alone would be inconsequential, so my guilt is limited.

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

If that is your genuine belief then you should vote. Stupid.

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Wes old boy.

I have just received an out of office message telling me that you "will be on holiday until January 5th, 2015 however should be online occassionally over the Christmas holidays."

Sort it out mate.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Monty92

I know I should. But I'm just one person and my vote alone would be inconsequential, so my guilt is limited.

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That view is almost as limited as your justifications for Wenger remaining as Arsenal manager next year. It takes only the smallest amount of analysis to rip that argument apart.

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Originally Posted by SWv2

Wes old boy.

I have just received an out of office message telling me that you "will be on holiday until January 5th, 2015 however should be online occassionally over the Christmas holidays."

Sort it out mate.

:rolleyes:

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It gets worse. My internal email reply says that I am out of office from Feb 26 to Feb 28 instead of April. I have asked my secretary to sort it out but have limited expectations. :-)

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Originally Posted by Monty92

Is this about me not elucidating on why Wenger's still the man for the job? :rolleyes:

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You've tirelessly made your case on that, I thought, and your view won the day?

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Originally Posted by Monty92

You can't disagree with misanthropy. It may simply be that my sensibilities are offended by stupidity more than yours.

I don't believe that you genuinely feel that most people are not stupid. We both engage in the real world every day and we will both have developed reliable techniques for discerning the levels of intelligence of people that we meet. Sometimes we will underestimate or overestimate, but generally our instincts will not be far off the mark.

It is blindingly obvious that most people do not place importance on the critical thinking required to be a truly intelligent person (beyond IQ and General Intelligence) and instead focus their attentions on other things, some of which are of great value both to themselves and others and some that are not.

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I will put it this way. As a general rule, the cleverest people I know tend to be the biggest ****s, the least fun to be around and the least likely to get their round in.

When it comes to voting the vast majority of people vote in their own self interest and even the stupid ones are generally able to work out what that is. Intelligence is not needed when it comes to voting. Or getting your round in.

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

That view is almost as limited as your justifications for Wenger remaining as Arsenal manager next year. It takes only the smallest amount of analysis to rip that argument apart.

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What, you're going to try to prove that my vote alone is not inconsequential?

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Originally Posted by Monty92

I know I should. But I'm just one person and my vote alone would be inconsequential, so my guilt is limited.

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Democracy's about far more than merely voting though. It's about responsibility.

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

my secretary

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The 1970s called. They want their Professional Assistant back.

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Originally Posted by Peter

I will put it this way. As a general rule, the cleverest people I know tend to be the biggest ****s, the least fun to be around and the least likely to get their round in.

When it comes to voting the vast majority of people vote in their own self interest and even the stupid ones are generally able to work out what that is. Intelligence is not needed when it comes to voting. Or getting your round in.

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There's just different *kinds* of intelligence (and stupidity), not just the one.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

You can't disagree with misanthropy. It may simply be that my sensibilities are offended by stupidity more than yours.

I don't believe that you genuinely feel that most people are not stupid. We both engage in the real world every day and we will both have developed reliable techniques for discerning the levels of intelligence of people that we meet. Sometimes we will underestimate or overestimate, but generally our instincts will not be far off the mark.

It is blindingly obvious that most people do not place importance on the critical thinking required to be a truly intelligent person (beyond IQ and General Intelligence) and instead focus their attentions on other things, some of which are of great value both to themselves and others and some that are not.

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We're all stupid. Just stupid in different ways. Doesn't seem to be much point in getting all out of shape about it. When I meet and interact with people I don't try to identify how stupid they are, but in which ways they are intelligent or interesting or attractive. We just have very different priorities, it seems.

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Originally Posted by Peter

I will put it this way. As a general rule, the cleverest people I know tend to be the biggest ****s, the least fun to be around and the least likely to get their round in.

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The Americans have a word for this, which is 'smart'. Smart meets not getting your round in because you are cleverer than everyone else and have uniquely worked out that if you don't ever get a round in you get you keep all your money and can go on to enjoy wealth and status. This makes you smart. :-|

See also many other ruthless examples of fiscal cùntery whereby screwing people over is something to aspire to because it shows how smart you are.

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Originally Posted by Ash

We're all stupid. Just stupid in different ways. Doesn't seem to be much point in getting all out of shape about it. When I meet and interact with people I don't try to identify how stupid they are, but in which ways they are intelligent or interesting or attractive. We just have very different priorities, it seems.

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It sounds like our priorities are pretty much the same to me.

"We will both have developed reliable techniques for discerning the levels of intelligence of people that we meet."

"When I meet and interact with people I don't try to identify how stupid they are, but in which ways they are intelligent [...]"

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Originally Posted by Ash

We're all stupid. Just stupid in different ways. Doesn't seem to be much point in getting all out of shape about it. When I meet and interact with people I don't try to identify how stupid they are, but in which ways they are intelligent or interesting or attractive. We just have very different priorities, it seems.

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I think M is on the make though, in a way you are not, so I guess he's more sensitive to these things, less willing to be so generous?

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Originally Posted by Ash

The Americans have a word for this, which is 'smart'. Smart meets not getting your round in because you are cleverer than everyone else and have uniquely worked out that if you don't ever get a round in you get you keep all your money and can go on to enjoy wealth and status. This makes you smart. :-|

See also many other ruthless examples of fiscal cùntery whereby screwing people over is something to aspire to because it shows how smart you are.

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I'm not sure that's any less ethical than you "screwing over" the other blokes and blokesses who were interviewed along with you for your current job by using your superior skills, experience, etc.