My worry is that this anti-Semitism stuff has a limited shelf-life and will blow over

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Originally Posted by Monty92

But what is happening is the equivalent to the Tory party being discovered (and admitting), in 2018, to be as institutionally racist as it was in 1970, all the way up to the leadership itself. That is a huge deal.

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Its a storm but it isnt something that kills them at the polls. People who are terribly worried about institutional racism simply dont vote conservative. As Pokster says, there is a difference between what people will get excited about as a news story and what will actually affect their vote.

THe whole point of an election campaign is to focus the debate on your issues. An election about racism is never going to help the conservatives. Also, the classy thing to do here is stand and watch as the labour party rips itself to pieces. THe one thing the left in britain Has always excelled at is infighting and self destruction.

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Originally Posted by Peter

Its a storm but it isnt something that kills them at the polls. People who are terribly worried about institutional racism simply dont vote conservative. As Pokster says, there is a difference between what people will get excited about as a news story and what will actually affect their vote.

THe whole point of an election campaign is to focus the debate on your issues. An election about racism is never going to help the conservatives. Also, the classy thing to do here is stand and watch as the labour party rips itself to pieces. THe one thing the left in britain Has always excelled at is infighting and self destruction.

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I'm not talking about this damaging Labour at the next election. I'm talking about implementing a hugely cynical and opportunistic campaign that is subtle enough to appear as if it's not being directly engineered or encouraged by the Tory party itself but that will ensure the issue doesn't go away and ultimately serves to undermine Corbyn so that his own party turns against him in a way that is catastrophic for his leadership.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

I'm not talking about this damaging Labour at the next election. I'm talking about implementing a hugely cynical and opportunistic campaign that is subtle enough to appear as if it's not being directly engineered or encouraged by the Tory party itself but that will ensure the issue doesn't go away and ultimately serves to undermine Corbyn so that his own party turns against him in a way that is catastrophic for his leadership.

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Thing is, people are horribly susceptible to conspiracy theories at the best of times. One hint of an 'establishment stitch-up' and it's Jezza the Martyr.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Thing is, people are horribly susceptible to conspiracy theories at the best of times. One hint of an 'establishment stitch-up' and it's Jezza the Martyr.

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That's why it has to be subtle and, if possible, media-led rather than Tory party led. And the beauty is, anyone who claims it's a smear is, in the current atmosphere, instantly condemned as part of the problem.

They literally have nowhere to turn.

Right now I'm watching Daily Politics and Andrew Neill is doing exactly what I'm proposing. He's got a Labour MP on and is giving him a torrid time, throwing examples at him of all the Labour members who have made anti-semitic comments and remained in the party and asking him why. He's absolutely squirming.

Labour can't possibly throw out everyone who's said something dubious about Israel or Jews - it would half their membership. And so people should keep turning the screw...

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Originally Posted by Monty92

I'm not talking about this damaging Labour at the next election. I'm talking about implementing a hugely cynical and opportunistic campaign that is subtle enough to appear as if it's not being directly engineered or encouraged by the Tory party itself but that will ensure the issue doesn't go away and ultimately serves to undermine Corbyn so that his own party turns against him in a way that is catastrophic for his leadership.

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Which means that if they do it properly you won't know about it and will criticise them for not having done it :)

This is the type of thing that spins itself and anything other than the occasional nudge or subtle leak from people associated with the Torres will seem like cynical politics over a very serious issue (of course, it really isnt that serious at all).

The tactic May will use in public will involve never even mentioning the issue specifically but nodding towards it as another indication of Corbyn's lack of leadership of his own party. If he cant even run his own party etc etc....

I think we are getting a little carried away over this whole thing and there is a danger it could get more complicated for everyone if it splinters into conversations about Israel vs good old anti-semitism. If you are Theresa May you certainly dont want to be answering questions about Israel and Palestine all the time. Even worse, youdontwant Boris getting asked them.

If I was advising May at this point I would be telling her to leave this one alone.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Thing is, people are horribly susceptible to conspiracy theories at the best of times. One hint of an 'establishment stitch-up' and it's Jezza the Martyr.

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Of course there is also the notion that Israel rather cynically exploits the conflation Of anti-zionism and anti-semitism to ensure that all criticism of its actions are written off as anti-semitism. You know, the way you claim Muslims use the term islamophobia.

I do think Corbyn's insistence on giving balanced answers to all these sorts of questions is a difficult sell in a news cycle. Denying you are anti-semitic but criticising Israel wont help put this to bed....

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Originally Posted by Monty92

That's why it has to be subtle and, if possible, media-led rather than Tory party led. And the beauty is, anyone who claims it's a smear is, in the current atmosphere, instantly condemned as part of the problem.

They literally have nowhere to turn.

Right now I'm watching Daily Politics and Andrew Neill is doing exactly what I'm proposing. He's got a Labour MP on and is giving him a torrid time, throwing examples at him of all the Labour members who have made anti-semitic comments and remained in the party and asking him why. He's absolutely squirming.

Labour can't possibly throw out everyone who's said something dubious about Israel or Jews - it would half their membership. And so people should keep turning the screw...

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I agree. But there is a law of diminishing returns with these things. The more you hammer away on one topic, the less shock value the accusations have and the less attention is paid to them. Issues have a shelf-life. If you continue past that shelf life, you risk the public thinking 'change the record, ffs' and thinking that you're flogging a dead horse. What's more, the more they will start to suspect co-ordination and collusion.

To do the most damage, there needs to be a steady drip-drip of these revelations over a long period with occasional major flare-ups such as the one now. That discredits Labour and means it can be knocked off balance with regularity and can't mount any effective or sustained attacks on the tories.

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Originally Posted by Peter

Of course there is also the notion that Israel rather cynically exploits the conflation Of anti-zionism and anti-semitism to ensure that all criticism of its actions are written off as anti-semitism. You know, the way you claim Muslims use the term islamophobia.

I do think Corbyn's insistence on giving balanced answers to all these sorts of questions is a difficult sell in a news cycle. Denying you are anti-semitic but criticising Israel wont help put this to bed....

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For Corbyn, the mural thing was the real killer since the mural in question had nothing to do with Israel, but contained blatantly anti-semitic imagery and Corbyn gave it his endorsement.

So I would put it another way and say that it is quite helpful to this conflation you suggest that so many of the people who attack Israel - like Corbyn - also happen to be repulsive anti-semites.

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Originally Posted by Burney

For Corbyn, the mural thing was the real killer since the mural in question had nothing to do with Israel, but contained blatantly anti-semitic imagery and Corbyn gave it his endorsement.

So I would put it another way and say that it is quite helpful to this conflation you suggest that so many of the people who attack Israel - like Corbyn - also happen to be repulsive anti-semites.

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Problem is I would suggest 99% of the population aren't that bothered about it and feel there are more important things to be concerned about (rightly or wrongly)

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Originally Posted by Pokster

Problem is I would suggest 99% of the population aren't that bothered about it and feel there are more important things to be concerned about (rightly or wrongly)

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Of course. But this stuff does resonate and have an effect. Look at today's PMQs. Corbyn had the opportunity to get a Minister (rightly) sacked over the John Worboys thing and - incomprehensibly - totally missed it. You have to wonder how much of that is his own deep reserves of stupidity and incompetence and how much it's an effect of the anti-semitism stuff putting Labour off balance, damaging their confidence and taking their eye off the ball.